Are you ready for this?

Homepage Forums Theism Are you ready for this?

This topic contains 65 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 66 total)
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  • #34702

    Unseen
    Participant

    I can easily think of a more perfect being than a who would have created this planet with the derranged people who live on it.

    I can conceive of an absolutely perfect universe of which a universe more perfect could not be concieved and so it must exist and yet this universe is clearly not perfect

    The Devil’s Advocate sez: Obviously, screwed up the world by sinning and otherwise misusing their free will. As for the flaws in the universe, what flaws?

    I can conceive of a beef taco that is so perfect no beef taco could possibly be better. Where is this taco and how do I find it?

    The Devil’s Advocate sez: Actually, Anselm handled that objection in his response to Gaunilo’s argument on behalf of a perfect island. Basically, to exist necessarily is an inherent property of a perfect deity, but not of any island. You can add such a property, but you can also take it away and be left with a perfect sland whose existence is contingent rather than necessary. You can’t take it away from God because then you aren’t talking about God at all.

    #34703

    Unseen
    Participant

    If God is anything but a lesser being, couldn’t he a perfect, necessary non-being or non-entity?

    Maybe it’s the late hour, but I’m having trouble even parsing that.

    Given the contradictions inherent in the concept of a God, I can more easily conceive of a God not existing than existing,  So why doesn’t that figure into the whole Ontological Argument?

    The ontological argument skirts all that stuff by simply sticking to its premises, trusting that the rest can be handled later.

    If the Ontological Argument is the most cutting-edge argument (1078 C.E.) that Theists can come with, then Theism and Theistic religion have been running on fumes for a long,’long time.

    Lately, the cosmological argument is probably the most cutting edge, but the advantage to the believer of the ontological argument is that it ties the atheist into knots. I know Uncle Remus stories have fallen out of favor in these politically correct times, but it makes me think of the famous Tar Baby of the Uncle Remus tales as depicted in Disney’s Song of the South.

    #34704

    Kristina
    Participant

    I think we all know the most cutting edge argument is the banana.

    #34719

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    #34720

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    the advantage to the believer of the ontological argument is that it ties the atheist into knots.

    You’re right, it is fiendish.  If it’s internally valid, then the external premises need to be looked at.

    #34729

    Davis
    Moderator

    I see…so God had no choice but to create sin and sinful people?

    #34737

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I guess God had no choice but to create a spam shit-storm as well.

    Playing Devil’s Advocate, who’s to say that it’s not perfect to create sin and sinful people?  This world is a test to see how well we cope with it morally.

    #34739

    Kristina
    Participant

    I guess God had no choice but to create a spam shit-storm as well. Playing Devil’s Advocate, who’s to say that it’s not perfect to create sin and sinful people? This world is a test to see how well we cope with it morally.

    Logically or even semantically, how does imperfection arise from perfection?

    If the system you postulated is definitionally perfect, then isn’t failing the test also definitionally perfect?

     

    #34740

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Logically or even semantically, how does imperfection arise from perfection?

    That’s the six million dollar question.  If “perfection” is a necessary element of the Ontological Argument, then it’s a flaw, since perfection is a human construct.  On the other hand, God is human-centred.

    If the system you postulated is definitionally perfect, then isn’t failing the test also definitionally perfect?

    Surely it’s possible to fail within a perfect system, e.g., a fair and well made school examination system.

    #34741

    Kristina
    Participant

    Surely it’s possible to fail within a perfect system, e.g., a fair and well made school examination system.

    The issue isn’t failing. Is failing not perfect by definition in this scenario? By what means can it not be perfect?

    #34744

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    It’s perfect, as everything is perfect, as part of this scenario.  However, within the scenario, from subjective points of view, things are not perfect.  It’s not perfect if my dog gets run over.  It’s not perfect for me if I fail the moral test of life and go to hell.  From God’s point of view, everything’s running fine.

    #34745

    Davis
    Moderator

    From God’s point of view, everything’s running fine.

    If we cannot comprehend the perfection of things then we cannot make claims about it making the whole theory fall appart.

    #34753

    Kristina
    Participant

    From God’s point of view, everything’s running fine.

    If we cannot comprehend the perfection of things then we cannot make claims about it making the whole theory fall appart.

    This represents my issue with many of these arguments. It’s not about whether the argument may stand or not, but rather before they can even be evaluated, there are so many terms which need to be defined. Some of these terms rest on the border of four-sided pentagons (e.g. a god that is perfect, but that definition of ‘perfection’ is paradoxical or self-contradicting) or they require tautologies we have no reason to entertain (e.g. god’s actions are perfect because god is perfect and a perfect being’s actions must logically be perfect).

    And this is all before we jump from a logical argument that a god must exist and try to some how marry it to the idea that this god is a particular god as described in, let’s say, the Old Testament.

    #34754

    Kristina
    Participant

    That little revelation does’t seem to bring that grey-haired fella much comfort. Maybe he should just roll with it. Might turn out to be a little ray of sunshine in his life.

    #34755

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    lol, everything looks better with pink eyes.

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