Are you ready for this?

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This topic contains 65 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 66 total)
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  • #34811

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    You wrote:

    Maybe it’s the late hour, but I’m having trouble even parsing that.

    Well, you did say “anything but a lesser being” so I ran with it and went, not for a lesser being, but the least, a non-being.  See what I did there?

    The ontological argument skirts all that stuff by simply sticking to its premises, trusting that the rest can be handled later.

    So the Ontological-ist carnival barker doing his sales pitch basically says: “Oh, details, details!  Get away from me, kid!  You bother me!” 🎪 😛

    (By the way, the difference between an Ontological-ist and an Oncologist is that an Oncologist fights cancer.)

    Lately, the cosmological argument is probably the most cutting edge, but the advantage to the believer of the ontological argument is that it ties the atheist into knots. I know Uncle Remus stories have fallen out of favor in these politically correct times, but it makes me think of the famous Tar Baby of the Uncle Remus tales as depicted in Disney’s Song of the South.

    I was thinking the Ontological Argument was more like those knitted leather finger-cuffs that you can’t release by pulling.  Instead, you have to push the fingers together, then hold the cuff with the other fingers to escape.

    (Yeah, I spoiled the trick, but knowing and telling such things can save freedom and lives.)

    But the Uncle Remus stories are apt too.  When you look past the Political Incorrectness of the story dialogue, there is some Sun-Tzu-level strate-gery going on there.

    B’rer Fox used B’rer Rabbit’s sociable, easily-offended nature to trap B’rer Rabbit.  The other part of that story is that B’rer Rabbit used B’rer Fox’s and B’rer Bear’s sadistic natures to escape their clutches.   (“Oh ple-e-e-e-e-se don’t throw me in da briar patch!”) 🦊🐻                 🥀🥀🥀🐰

    Another life-saver revealed.  The way things are going, we all may need it one day.

    #34814

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Simon,

    I guess God had no choice but to create a spam shit-storm as well.

    I see you noticed that too.  That junk messed up the activity feed and I had to go searching for this thread to catch up.

    Playing Devil’s Advocate, who’s to say that it’s not perfect to create sin and sinful people?  This world is a test to see how well we cope with it morally.

    Of course, an Omniscient, Omnipotent Being wouldn’t need a “test” like temptation to see who is moral.  Nor would he need to plant supposed fake fossils to test the faith of His human creations.   As an Omniscient, Omnipotent Being, God would know the outcome of how His human creations would act and indeed, would have made humans so they couldn’t act otherwise.

    Like I’ve said before, finding contradictions in the whole Cosmic G-Thang is like popping bubble wrap.  Great way to pass the time.

    #34815

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    As an Omniscient, Omnipotent Being, God would know the outcome of how His human creations would act and indeed, would have made humans so they couldn’t act otherwise.

    But the traditional Christian line, as far as I’m aware, is that God gives humans free will, to see how they will behave.  Is it really possible to have a functioning, living planet where nobody is anti-social?  I’m not sure it is. Maybe God makes the world like an adventure playground rather than a bland Tellytubby’s world, which wouldn’t prove anything.

    #34816

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Simon, if god creates humans then he creates their attributes. If he has given them free will and even he does not know exactly how things will unfold then he is not omniscient.

    Oh hell i cant play these games. It is on a par with kids debating superman.

    #34817

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Kristina,

    You wrote:

    This represents my issue with many of these arguments. It’s not about whether the argument may stand or not, but rather before they can even be evaluated, there are so many terms which need to be defined. Some of these terms rest on the border of four-sided pentagons (e.g. a god that is perfect, but that definition of ‘perfection’ is paradoxical or self-contradicting) or they require tautologies we have no reason to entertain (e.g. god’s actions are perfect because god is perfect and a perfect being’s actions must logically be perfect).

    And this is all before we jump from a logical argument that a god must exist and try to some how marry it to the idea that this god is a particular god as described in, let’s say, the Old Testament.

    Apologetics are as Churchill described Soviet Russia: “A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”

    But Apologetics are also like monkey bread: everybody at the Thanksgiving table can pull a little bun off from each direction and gobble it until it’s all gone. 😋

    #34818

    Unseen
    Participant

    Simon, if god creates humans then he creates their attributes. If he has given them free will and even he does not know exactly how things will unfold then he is not omniscient. Oh hell i cant play these games. It is on a par with kids debating superman.

    The Devil’s Advocate sez: God has the power to simply compartmentalize what he knows about the future by simply not thinking about it the way a smoker knows that cigarettes are killing him but simply doesn’t think about it. Anything a mortal can do, surely a deity can do much better.

    #34819

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Simon and Kristina,

    Kristina wrote:

    That little revelation does’t seem to bring that grey-haired fella much comfort. Maybe he should just roll with it. Might turn out to be a little ray of sunshine in his life.

    The helmet-haired guy doesn’t look too enthused either.  I guess the thinly-disguised Ray Comfort just isn’t his type.  He must like smart, rational men instead. 😁

    #34820

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    The Devil’s Advocate sez: God has the power to simply compartmentalize what he knows about the future by simply not thinking about it the way a smoker knows that cigarettes are killing him but simply doesn’t think about it. Anything a mortal can do, surely a deity can do much better.

    No he can’t.🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️

    So God can slowly kill himself with a nasty habit plant of his own creation too?  The story wouldn’t be as dramatic as The Crucifixion, though. 🚬 vs.✝️

    #34822

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, that would be a case of deliberate indifference. It also would negate omniscience. If the entity willfully compartmentalizes then a realm of knowledge is missing and in so doing omniscience is negated.

    #34823

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Simon,

    You wrote:

    But the traditional Christian line, as far as I’m aware, is that God gives humans free will, to see how they will behave.

    That is the Christian  ‘doxy, of course, but Omnipotence and Omniscience still contradict free will, and to those Christians in the Calvinist/Presbyterian tradition, free will and sin doesn’t make a damn because God predestines who goes to Heaven and Hell anyway.  “Hooo!  Tough crowd!  Tough crowd!”

     Is it really possible to have a functioning, living planet where nobody is anti-social?  I’m not sure it is. Maybe God makes the world like an adventure playground rather than a bland Tellytubby’s world, which wouldn’t prove anything.

    Trend-bucking innovators and iconoclasts help make the world better, but not anti-social in the sense of coercers and destroyers.  Sadly, the God worshipped by most Theists and certainly Abrahamists doesn’t make that distinction.

    #34825

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen, that would be a case of deliberate indifference. It also would negate omniscience. If the entity willfully compartmentalizes then a realm of knowledge is missing and in so doing omniscience is negated.

    The Devil’s Advocate sez; Correction: That would be a perfect case of deliberate indifference.

    #34827

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Omnipotence and Omniscience still contradict free will

    The omnipotence and omniscience of God would not contradict the free will of humans.  God could know what we are going to do, without us knowing.

    #34828

    jakelafort
    Participant

    no Simon…if there is defined and inalterable path humans follow then free will is ilusory…this game is stupid!

    #34829

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    It may in fact be illusory, but we experience it as free will.

    #34830

    Kristina
    Participant

    But Apologetics are also like monkey bread: everybody at the Thanksgiving table can pull a little bun off from each direction and gobble it until it’s all gone. 😋

    I had to look up ‘monkey bread’. Finally, a conversation on theology has produced some useful knowledge.

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