Can AI compete against human creativity? It turns out that…

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I met up with a cousin of mine a while back. He said “I gotta say thanks man for making me listen to Volume 4 when I was 12. I have discovered so much great music because of that and it has enhanced my life at all of it stages”.

Forty years later, it is still a great album. It has inspired many bands but none have surpassed it.

Sometimes I read the comments and feel better for doing so.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

The question of whether morality must originate from an absolute authority, particularly a supernatural one, is central to a lot of philosophical debate between theists and secularists. Many religious apologists argue that without a divine authority, there can be no objective basis for morality, meaning there’s no ultimate “right” or “wrong”—only personal or societal preferences. However, there are strong counterpoints to this claim that have been developed within secular philosophy.

### 1. **Moral Realism without Supernatural Authority**

One approach is the concept of **moral realism**, which suggests that moral facts exist independently of human beliefs or any supernatural being. Moral realists argue that certain actions can be objectively right or wrong based on reason, empathy, and logical consistency rather than a divine command. Philosophers like Plato, who believed in forms or ideals of goodness, and Immanuel Kant, who proposed a universal duty-based moral framework, provide early examples of this thinking. Kant’s **Categorical Imperative** argues that moral principles are universal and can be understood through reason alone. This approach challenges the idea that morality must be grounded in a deity, asserting instead that rational beings can recognize moral truths.

### 2. **Evolutionary Basis of Morality**

Another theory is rooted in **evolutionary biology**. Evolutionary biologists and psychologists suggest that moral behaviors evolved because they increased social cohesion and survival. Cooperative behaviors, empathy, and fairness likely conferred evolutionary advantages, creating a form of **biological morality**. In this view, moral intuitions are not dictated by an external, supernatural source but are instead products of evolution, shaped to enable human beings to thrive in social groups. While these evolved moral instincts don’t constitute a prescriptive moral code, they provide a natural foundation upon which societies build moral frameworks.

### 3. **Humanistic and Utilitarian Ethics**

Secular morality often finds footing in **humanism**, which holds that human welfare, happiness, and suffering are the primary considerations in moral decision-making. **Utilitarianism**, championed by philosophers like Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill, posits that the moral worth of an action is determined by its consequences—specifically, whether it maximizes well-being or reduces suffering. This framework doesn’t require an absolute authority because it bases morality on measurable outcomes that can be empirically evaluated.

### 4. **Social Contract Theory**

**Social contract theory**, as advanced by thinkers like Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau, suggests that morality emerges from a mutual agreement among individuals to promote harmony and avoid conflict. Morality, in this view, is a construct that enables us to live together in stable, cooperative societies, rather than a set of rules handed down by a higher power. The “contract” is implicitly agreed upon to ensure mutual benefit and protection, grounded in rational self-interest.

### 5. **Objective Moral Values Derived from Secular Principles**

Some argue that objective moral values can be derived from secular principles that do not depend on divine authority. Philosophers like **Peter Singer** suggest that rational consistency can guide us to universal principles, such as the **principle of equal consideration of interests**. If we accept that unnecessary suffering is inherently negative, we can derive principles to guide moral action without invoking a supernatural source.

### So, is a Supernatural Authority Necessary for Morality?

Most secular frameworks conclude that morality doesn’t need a supernatural authority. Instead, secular moralities are based on human experience, empathy, and rational consideration, often grounded in principles that aim to reduce suffering and promote well-being. These principles derive their authority from shared human experiences and logical reasoning rather than divine command.

Moreover, secular moral systems provide adaptability; as human knowledge and society evolve, so can our understanding of ethical actions. This flexibility contrasts with absolute moral codes, which may become outdated as society changes.

The strength of secular morality lies in its ability to appeal to universally accessible reasons and experiences, rather than requiring belief in a specific deity. Rather than relying on an ultimate supernatural authority, secular morality can rest on a foundation of shared humanity, reason, and an ongoing commitment to reduce suffering and promote flourishing.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

State-of-the-art, which is to say, pretty dumb in some places but fair enough a lot of the time.  Yes, the AI has done a good job of summarising the field in my opinion.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

Your considerations are all human-centered. An intelligent AI needn’t be.

An AI can never be human-centred, because it’s Artificial.

[jakelafortParticipant]

The question of whether morality must originate from an absolute authority?

Reminds me of question whether we atheists can be good without having the imprimatur of stupidity.
When i watched Hitchens debate this issue with William Craig or whatever his name i wanted to retch, vomit, puke and be demonstrative in any way possible what a piss poor job for the good guys.

So stupid to fall for that nonsense. I am not gonna expand or explain my thinking just register my indignation.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

An AI can never be human-centred, because it’s Artificial.

But it doesn’t follow from that that it can’t be intelligent or conscious in a way it that serves its interests rather than ours.

[_Robert_Participant]

Unseen wrote:

The aibient Youtube channel puts out hyperrealistic AI-created 11-12 hour long simulated 3D videos like this virtually daily: Imagine how much it would cost and how much time it would take to hire a video artist to create anything like this if the stipulation was “no AI”.

When it comes to music, quantity doesn’t posses a quality of its own. The music-sphere is poised to be flooded with meaningless mediocrity. I suspect the same for film and art. Eventually we will have the pleasure of watching an android orchestra perform AI-generated symphonies. I guess they will expect applause. Perhaps a Bladerunner will show up and terminate the tuba player. Could happen.

[_Robert_Participant]

Rather than relying on an ultimate supernatural authority, secular morality can rest on a foundation of shared humanity, reason, and an ongoing commitment to reduce suffering and promote flourishing.

That’s a decent summary.

 

[_Robert_Participant]

I did use AI to help write a song and make suggestions. And then I didn’t care for it, but there is a reasonable workflow if you don’t let it just go hog-wild.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Writing a novel recently i alternated paragraphs with AI and while its syntax was flawless and progression logical there was something missing. Not exactly stilted. Can’t put my finger on it. But it was not quite right.

But i wonder if it has achieved a level in which it can lets say write in the style of Woolf, Twain, Dostoevsy. And if so is it the equal of those writers.

[UnseenParticipant]

You can’t have any sort of ethical system without absolutes. You can make ethical pronouncements till the cows come home, but without some sort of absolute value(s), you have no foundation to build one on.

[_Robert_Participant]

Unseen wrote:

You can’t have any sort of ethical system without absolutes. You can make ethical pronouncements till the cows come home, but without some sort of absolute value(s), you have no foundation to build one on.

It seems that with any sort of absolutes there ends up being a gazillion exceptions. Give us an absolute that has no exceptions, and you would be onto something.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

You can make ethical pronouncements till the cows come home, but without some sort of absolute value(s), you have no foundation to build one on.

Yes you do, you have physical and scientific facts to build the foundation on.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

But it doesn’t follow from that that it can’t be intelligent or conscious in a way it that serves its interests rather than ours.

You’re right, it doesn’t.  But your statement is also consistent with the idea that it can never be human.

[jakelafortParticipant]

I can be good without god. Ya see, theists, i am a good person. I do good stuff cuz it is good and avoid doing bad stuff not because i want to get in the good place and avoid the bad place.

Ya do, ha? Very proud of you. But you can not be a good person without the moral inculcation from our church!

It just sickens/amuses me how we go with the current willy nilly like a compliant filly. Just repeating shit and never thinking for ourselves.

[Author]

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