Greetings ,I'm back. Mythicism

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This topic contains 96 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Davis 1 day, 20 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 97 total)
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  • #33578

    Unseen
    Participant

    Well, Davis, obviously I’m referring to the God described by the Abrahamic religions only, or any other religion’s god claimed to have the same properties. But without those properties, it’s not much of a “god” is it? In fact, what about any proposed being lacking those and the rest of the properties claimed for the Abrahamic God, would make the being a god at all. Just the mere application of the descriptor?

    #33579

    Davis
    Participant

    There are numerous Gods who are described with non-contradictory qualities. And there are are no small number of Christians who cherry pick from the Christian tradition and believe in a God that does not have contradictory qualities. So if you are making the claim:

    The Christian God as described in the Bible and by catholic theologians, all spectacular incompatible qualities and all…could not exist

    I’m with you.

    I know God does not exist

    I am not with you.

    #33580

    jakelafort
    Participant

    When the planet of the apes ape du jour evolves to have culture it will project its own Jesus Jelly boo boo Bear. Way cuter than pony jesus and more a security blanket than Linus had.

    Throughout the universe there are civilizations projecting their characteristics onto their makers and mythology. My crystal ball is so pellucid. It babbles like a piscatorial brook without the refraction of light that obscures an acid rain pond in the Adirondacks.

    #33581

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Silly Humans. My summary, as objectively as I can put it…

    This is about science vs faith, i.e. what’s rational, logical, but most importantly what is documentable and repeatedly provable, VS faith, i.e. believing something just because it feels right regardless of lack of proof.

    In addition to repeatably/universally understood proofs, science also operates on assumptions and credible probabilities while pursuing proofs or disproofs of those credible probabilities. On that second note, I can safely say I believe God doesn’t exist, while to have absolute intellectual and scientific integrity I have to admit that I cannot scientifically prove that God doesn’t exist.

    So here’s a kind of contradiction: I call myself an atheist and behave as an atheist, but deep down, for the sake of absolute intellectual and scientific honesty, I am really an agnostic. This is important to me, when it comes to asking anyone else, e.g. a theist, to be as intellectually honest as that in a discussion. I am still free to tell them that I’m not satisfied with their reasoning, and no one has ever come even close to being able to prove that God exists… except in the minds of like-minded people who are satisfied with never having to prove their case to themselves or to any outsiders… unlike scientists.

    Unseen, have you ever seen, or expect to see a scientific paper that “proves” that God does not exist? (I assume “No” but you can correct me.) Yet you and I and others here can feel confident enough to behave and believe like agnostics, OR like presumed atheist scientists who honestly know they can’t scientifically prove their presumption.

    Meanwhile it wouldn’t surprise me to see philosophers skittering all over the map on this. Postmodernists, especially, right Davis?

    I am pretty sure God doesn’t exist. Even really sure at times, as I’m really sure that humans love to make up these make believe stories and judge others who don’t buy them. But I’m not absolutely sure, because an absolute claim like that would make me scientifically hypocritical.

    #33582

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Asserting the absence of certainty over the validity of mythology is useful how?

    Agreed that we cant be utterly certain about gods or anything else. But for practical purposes it is a nonmutha fucking entity. It is as likely as Unseen feeling spry some morning after having bagged one of those super models and jumping for joy at his conquests as he breaks through earth’s atmosphere into space and is unscathed and enjoying orbiting the pale blue dot but missing access to the internet.

    #33583

    Unseen
    Participant

    There are numerous Gods who are described with non-contradictory qualities. And there are are no small number of Christians who cherry pick from the Christian tradition and believe in a God that does not have contradictory qualities. So if you are making the claim:

    The Christian God as described in the Bible and by catholic theologians, all spectacular incompatible qualities and all…could not exist

    I’m with you.

    I know God does not exist

    I am not with you.

    I never said “I know that no god exists.” My argument was against the God we atheists are almost universally talking about. I can prove he doesn’t exist with mathematical certainty using mathematical logic applied to his supposed properties, which apply to the God worshipped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims.”

    Can I prove to a dead certainty that Hanuman (Hinduism’s monkey god) or Bastet (the Egyptian cat god) don’t exist? Do I need to? I would say I know they don’t exist about as well as I know I’m not writing this from the surface of the Moon. A degree of certainty I’ll call knowledge.

    Let me ask you this, Davis. Do you know that there isn’t a rhinoceros in your bathroom, or do you have to look to make sure? I’m betting that you know. This is a kind of knowledge that only an absurd level of doubt can call into question.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    #33585

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Do you know that there isn’t a rhinoceros in your bathroom, or do you have to look to make sure? I’m betting that you know. This is a kind of knowledge that only an absurd level of doubt can call into question.

    Putting it that way, +1. Not even coy.

    #33588

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Greetings,

    I am completely with Unseen on this subject.  Omniscience, Omipotence, Omnibenevolence, Immortality, and Perfection all contradict themselves and each other and the larger context of our  knowledge in so many ways, an Omnific Supernatural Being is impossible ipso facto and a priori.   This is not a dogmatic claim of a Theologian, simply the nature of Logic applied to the attributes as defined by believers.

    To give just one brief example, Omniscience is self-contradictory because it is a claim to knowledge without acquisition and verification, which cannot exist.

     

    #33589

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    Here’s something I hope addresses what you are saying: There may be unknown beings in the Natural Universe that have more physical power, intellect, and longevity than humans, (in fact, plenty of species on Earth are stronger and more long-lived,) but unless those attributes are unlimited, those beings are not gods as commonly claimed and worshipped.  If such beings exist, they are simply other natural  beings.

    #33596

    Davis
    Participant

    Am I talking with a Philosopher?

    Then no I cannot say with absolute certainty that a purple unicorn is not dancing in my bathroom at this very moment. I am as certain as I need to be.

    Am I talking with anyone else?

    No. There is no purple unicorn dancing in my bathroom at the moment.

    _______________

    I would never make a metaphysical absolute negative claim unless the properties of that being are logically impossible.

    _______________

    In the future if you want to be absolutely clear you are talking about something specific, like say, the Christian God…contradictory qualities and all…then say so. Be specific. And pay attention, I made the distinction TWICE between the Christian god with contradictory qualities and others. We’ve been disagreeing for no reason all this time.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Davis.
    #33602

    Unseen
    Participant

    In the future if you want to be absolutely clear you are talking about something specific, like say, the Christian God…contradictory qualities and all…then say so. Be specific. And pay attention, I made the distinction TWICE between the Christian god with contradictory qualities and others. We’ve been disagreeing for no reason all this time.

    There’s a story I’ll paraphrase about Bertrand Russell on the witness stand asked if he believed in God. His reply consisted of a lengthy list Gods. It went on for quite a while. The prosecuting attorney asked, when Russell was done, whether he believed in any kind of god and Russell simply replied “No.” I’m with Lord Russell.

    What you are asking me to do is to be clear on which gods I don’t believe in. I was relying on context, the context being this group which has never discussed the existence of Odin, Ahura Mazda, Krishna, or any other non-Abrahamic deity. If we did, please remind us.

    That said, I know as well as I know anything outside math and logic that no gods exist. And by a god I mean a being that meets a very minimal requirement every god I’ve heard of meets: the ability to perform magical acts. Not illusions, actual magic. Most of them (not all), minimally, are said to be universe-creators by an act of magic. How else to characterize the creation of the universe by the Abrahamic God if not magic? In the case of the Norse gods, I don’t claim to be expert, but I don’t believe they created the universe. Also, they are not immortal, so they stretch the entire concept of a god pretty far. Even so, I know they don’t exist.

    Your test for knowledge is so strenuous, it is impossible to satisfy. In fact, I’m not even sure you believe simple arithmetic operations are certainly true or false. Is 2+2=23 absolutely true or false?

    In the sense of “to know something” we all use every day, we can know God doesn’t exist and that no gods exist. I maintain I can know that with far greater certitude than other things I would claim I know with absolute certainty: things such as that I live in an apartment in Oregon, that there is no rhinoceros in my bathroom, that I have two siblings, that Donald Trump is currently the President of the United States, that I have only two legs. I als0 know I’m getting low on coffee cream, that it’s a cloudy day today, that leprechauns don’t exist, that nobody can see a rainbow side on.

    I know those things with certainty. If I’m wrong, I’m not really wrong, I’m crazy.

    Let me ask this question to you and those who side with you: Should the name of this group be AgnostiZone? You seem to think that nobody should espouse atheism.

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    #33605

    …that leprechauns don’t exist…

    When the fronkeys read that they became very unsettled. I told them not to worry about asking anyone to prove a negative again and they calmed down immediately. Phew!

    #33606

    Unseen
    Participant

    That whole “You can’t prove a negative” thing is bogus both in math/logic and real life. There’s no question A and Not-A is false and it can be proven false, though there should be no need to do so for any rational person. Likewise, I can prove that there’s no rhinoceros in my bathroom by simply taking you to my bathroom and opening the door so you can take a look.

    #33607

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Yes, but you wouldn’t be able to see God with your eyes.

    #33608

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Simon you are making an assertion that requires knowledge. How do you know that?

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