It's not Russia, it's Putin

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This topic contains 203 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 4 months ago.

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  • #44818

    Unseen
    Participant

    @Enco

    You’re talking petroleum. I’m talking LNG (liquefied natural gas). The U.S. became the leading exporter of LNG this year. LNG is what the Nord Stream pipelines were constructed to transport.

     

    #44819

    Unseen
    Participant

    I’m seeing no argument against the possibilities I presented. Underwater drones would make it easier, but they’re not necessary, and it’s likely that Ukraine has the wherewithal. Qatar, too. While experienced third parties could be hired. Still, I’m not pushing any conclusions as to who actually rigged the explosives until the evidence is convincing. Your conclusions are on record twice now.

    You say Russia wouldn’t benefit from the sabotage, but I’ve been saying this is about Putin, not Russia, and Putin’s been acting selfishly, ruthlessly, desperately, and foolishly.

    Explain how taking a major bargaining chip off the table would benefit him. I don’t see him as acting foolishly. He is desperate and has diminishing options at his disposal, but I don’t see him as acting out of anything other than self-interest.

    #44820

    Unseen
    Participant

    @Enco

    I asked you to fit China into your theories against centralized control. You know, how is it that if centralized control doesn’t work that they’ve been taking our lunch money and growing two or three times faster for some decades now.

    Did you miss that or are you working hard on filling us all in?

    #44821

    _Robert_
    Participant

    @Enco I asked you to fit China into your theories against centralized control. You know, how is it that if centralized control doesn’t work that they’ve been taking our lunch money and growing two or three times faster for some decades now. Did you miss that or are you working hard on filling us all in?

    This was largely our own doing. Our business leaders moved just about everything we used to manufacture to China for cheap labor. Such great foresight. And we as a country reaped the Walmart low prices, did we not? Now they can do it all without us.  My own ex-company sold several designs and manufacturing rights to Chinese firms “because if we don’t, someone else will”. We just gave up our technologies for a fast buck. Of course, that doesn’t mean Westerners will be flocking to immigrate to China for the great quality of life, LOL. I have no doubt that Westerners can still out compete China if we just stopped being such sellouts.

    #44822

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Enco, retaking what was once part of the territory of a sovereign nation and super power? I think so. And Kiev was the actual center of Russia before Lord Novgorod the Great and until the rise of Moscow. Putin has a fondness/nostalgia for the lore of Russian history so i am dubious about your assertion. Maybe it is or was all of Ukraine or maybe not. The days of conquest a la Genghis, Alexander, Hitler et. al are past. If there had been a united front by all concerned parties that war had to be avoided and instead getting to a win/win by having a reshuffling of where people lived based on their ethnicity and sentiments then everyone could have a clear conscience that war was unavoidable. I have said it already and i will say it again. Human lives are cheap. Dirt cheap. I see you and many others who are cavalier about war and the consequences.

    What we ought to be concerned with is how it is in the 21st century that we still have dictators. How can one person fuck the lives and jeopardize the lives of so many? It is maddening and it is sickening. How do we get rid of Putin without obliging his agression by proxy with aggression? When will humans ever try something new? War war kill kill torture torture… That is great Bob. Then we pretend to be shocked by atrocities, by wanton cruelty, by senseless violence and rape. You don’t want to surrender? I don’t know that you are fighting. I don’t know that you have the right to put the world at risk of nucs. I don’t know that you have the right to cause starvation in people who have nothing to do with Ukraine and Russia.

    Jake, I don’t know how to answer every statement I’ve bolded above, as they all seem to point to their own ironies, e.g. pointing fingers but not positing any viable solution. What “something new” could we try on Putin? And who’s “cavalier” about war and its consequences, when this dictator fully and consistently lies to his own Russian people and has been planning and running this war from the beginning, not to mention has a shameless history of ordering international war crimes against civilians? Who’s “pretending” to be shocked about it; as if anyone should just be getting used to those kinds of threats and actions against the world?

    Now it’s his threat of using nucs that should make us back down? How does that make the world safer in the long run, when he’s rigged his own office to be in perpetual power? While trying to re-build empire as he cheapens the lives he’s pretending to care about? He fucks over his own people to do this… how could anyone be possibly optimistic about just letting him have his way with the world?

    #44823

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Explain how taking a major bargaining chip off the table would benefit him.

    I already said, he could be false-flagging the sabotage. What benefits him, personally, is any perceived “win” that could keep him in power.

    He is desperate and has diminishing options at his disposal, but I don’t see him as acting out of anything other than self-interest.

    On that, we agree.

    #44824

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Putin in the Bunker
    The Russian president against the world

    From The Atlantic, by Tom Nichols. Excerpts:

    […] During a meandering rant, Putin defended raw Russian imperialism while he spooled off about a number of topics, including the fall of the U.S.S.R., the power of Western hegemony, and the American use of nuclear weapons on Japan. But his underlying goal was to warn the rest of the world to cease its opposition to his war of conquest in Ukraine.

    […]

    Putin’s rant was meant to make the world quail in fear. In reality, Putin is likely more terrified than anyone right now: He’s a Russian dictator losing a war of aggression, and he knows how that could end for him. In his speech, he justified the war in Ukraine using everything from the boundaries of ancient Russia to what he sees as the illegitimate dissolution of the Soviet Union. With sheer brass, he then complained about Western colonialism and human-rights violations—this, from the leader of a country with a long and bloody history, from the tsars to Stalin and beyond, of enslaving and murdering millions.

    […]

    […] He fulminated about trans people—almost certainly hoping that the usual useful idiots in the right-wing American press will pick up on it—and referred to the “overthrow of faith and traditional values” in the West as equivalent to “Satanism.”

    […]

    […] But Putin has now said that he is at war with everything that the nations of the world—including Russia—have built since the end of World War II. His demand is to be allowed to brutalize whomever he chooses and seize whatever he wants. His threat, no longer even barely veiled, is that if he is not allowed to run amok and create bloodbaths by fiat, he will use nuclear weapons.

    #44825

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    You don’t want to surrender? I don’t know that you are fighting. I don’t know that you have the right to put the world at risk of nucs. I don’t know that you have the right to cause starvation in people who have nothing to do with Ukraine and Russia.

    If Ukraine were happening in my back yard and hometown, then, yes, I would be joining The Wolverines with the Eighties Brat Pack.

    And if Putin blocks shipments of food and people die or if he uses nukes over Donbass, then those atrocities are his moral respinsibility (and may be his last,) not mine, yours, nor anyone in the U.S., The West, Ukraine, or anywhere else. Putin doesn’t get to say: “Blame it on Midnight, Shame on the Moon!” in Russian.

    #44826

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Pope, the one pope who explores the scope of issues far and wide, is loath to deride and keen to abide by good manners and inquisitive scanners.

    You want answers? Okay i won’t do the you can’t handle the truth scene although it is one of my faves.

    I am resigned to the human comedy and the recalcitrance to consider a change in how we approach the most fundamental issues. So while i could expand and give my thoughts it would come off as unrealistic. And that would be a fair assessment. There is very little hope for humanity unless and until A I is a pleasant surprise.

    #44827

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert, did you escape damage from the hurricane?

    #44828

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    There is very little hope for humanity unless and until A I is a pleasant surprise.

    I feel alone in all circles (so far) when pushing the idea that, as long as AI is designed and owned by humans, while being owned by humans, it will excel in accordance with those owners’ behests, for better and for worse. (Disclaimer, I don’t actually spend much time in many circles, so I’m sure I’m missing similar viewpoints.)

    I just wrote a couple of paragraphs on that here, but think I should take it to another topic. Btw I appreciate the “pleasant surprise” phrase, and I assume it’s an unless-and-until qualification? IMO, it could just as easily become an unpleasant surprise. Actually, a mix at first, perhaps until one dominates the other.

    #44829

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Robert, did you escape damage from the hurricane?

    Thanks for asking Jake! We did OK, no power for 3 days because a tree fell on the powerlines, but the house is on 4-foot pilings, so that helped us stay dry. The garden is striped of leaves, hoping some of the plants will recover. The eye passed over us as it was transitioning from a cat 1 to a TS. If it was gonna be a 3 or higher, we would have packed up and made a dash. I learned not to mess around with these things after barely surviving Andrew when I lived further south.

    #44830

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert, glad to know you are okay.

    I saw how Orlando was and know you are somewhere central or north central so no assurance until it passes that it is okay. I have a cousin in Punta Gorda but not sure yet how he fared.

    #44831

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Pope, i am obviously super pessimistic.

    I agree that it could as easily go south with A I as go well. I do not claim any expertise in A I. I’ve listened to some podcasts and putative experts. Some experts if one can be an expert in the unknown are of the opinion that the genesis of super intelligence will occur rather rapidly in the not distant future and not be confined or guided by programming. From what i gather there have already been surprises in terms of programming v. outcome. My intuition is that we are mistaken to think sentience and intelligence must be and can only be associated with biology.

    #44832

    Unseen
    Participant

    This was largely our own doing. Our business leaders moved just about everything we used to manufacture to China for cheap labor. Such great foresight. And we as a country reaped the Walmart low prices, did we not? Now they can do it all without us.  My own ex-company sold several designs and manufacturing rights to Chinese firms “because if we don’t, someone else will”. We just gave up our technologies for a fast buck. Of course, that doesn’t mean Westerners will be flocking to immigrate to China for the great quality of life, LOL. I have no doubt that Westerners can still out compete China if we just stopped being such sellouts.

    Is it so hard to attribute to the Chinese some competence, if only in flim-flamming America into falling into a well-set trap? We live in a “greed is good” culture that doesn’t run government to benefit the little guy. By contrast, the Chinese have raised the standard of living of the average Chinese by several orders of magnitude and will almost certainly be the dominant country and economy in just several decades.

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