Letters to my religious friend…Can we be friends?

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can we still be friends?

after reading our email exchange...do you think we can maintain some commonality and remain friend?.

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  • #1 yes... don't be so weird
  • #2 no...he is weird

This topic contains 5 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 2 days ago.

Viewing 6 posts - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)
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  • #29276

    mike
    Participant

    Kevin:

    I reject large and growing portions of the secular world

    Mike:

    Its that word “secular” that lost me. Does that mean you would rather sanction radicle Muslims fractions who throw every xir from roof tops or the Christian-white-supremist who shoots up a black church? Would you rather be associated with a Catholic politician like Scheer who does not believe in evolution and thinks the world was created in six days or a materialist, secular, intellectual like Pinker? How is secular relevant?

    Kevin:

    Your examples are misleading. You could say that “people with heads and five fingers” throw xir off rooftops or gun down black people. Conflation.

     

    It is the secular world that is unmoored, drifting around lost as to what is up and down.

     

    Mike:

    Ok, your wrong, but I’ll take the bait…

     

    I am assuming you mean, by use of the word “world”, that some individuals act in this world, as you say… unmoored, drifting around lost as to what is up and down…so, what are your “non-conflated” examples of secular people, that exhibit these traits; that are not similarly exhibited by non-seculars?…

     

    Somehow you have come to the errant conclusion that secular people have a formula for life exempting them from “drifting around lost”. It couldn’t be further from the truth. Most people, whether secular or non-secular, unequivocally behave in this way. And more importantly non-secular people do it “moored” to fantasy, delusion, ignorance of reality and denial of scientific facts….up to them is a firmament, and down is hell…secular scientist at least know what is up and down. To non-seculars, all their wisdom comes from an un-inspired book written by flawed ignoramuses…we sprung into existence, fully in human form, by the magic touch of a hand, that has nothing that created it…it just is. Oh… and a good stoning or genocide is the answer to all problems. I would not want to live in that brain and I have no clue why you would….

     

    Mike:

    Plante claims that religious people are “better citizens” and “behave better.” And he tells us: “Research has consistently found that religious people are less likely to engage in criminal behavior, marital infidelity, alcoholism, unprotected sexual activity.

     

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

     

    Kevin:

    Not so simple. It’s a contradiction. To be a Christian means we aspire to. Nobody reaches it nor comes close. (Watch your purse at church; the pews are full of sinners.) But we do have a direction. We should be more aware of our shortcomings than someone who believes only in himself and dismisses a higher power.

     

    Awareness might make a better person but because we all remain apes with pants, I doubt so.

    Mike:

    Its true “they should be more aware” and that’s why I fight them; because they are not. Giving yourself over to a higher power is to place ones head in the sand and ignore the horrors around us…Take responsibility for your negative influence on the biosphere we all cause and the harm to our fellow humans… it does not help the earth and it does not help the organisms of the earth when you can say God put us in charge…clearly the philosophy is hypocritical when it can be proven the harm your belief causes. Look around at the state of the world and realize it not the two secular people out seven that are the problem. It is everyone…

     

    We are all responsible for the state of human affair, apart from any faith…Clearly you are unwilling to change your mind even with overwhelming evidence to the contrary…so I place you in the tribe of the disillusioned who live with a human contrived myth.

     

    It helps no-one to believe only religious people aspire to something greater than themselves…That is the myth you are trapped in…that it takes a higher power to be a self-reflective human and that there is something wrong with believing in your own goodness; unless the idea comes to you with a deity sitting on your shoulder…I feel shame for anyone who spreads that deception to future generations.

     

    Kevin:

    No response

    Mike:

     

    I just now watched this really good doc on volcanoes near Mexico…I didn’t watch it to see silly religious people, past and present, validate my hypothesis… but they and their ridiculous notions of controlling nature through religious superstition, and thinking their faith will save them from harm, have just made my point, clearly…

     

     

    Kevin:

    That’s superstition. You don’t understand religion.

     

    Mike:

     

    “controlling nature through religious superstition”

    I actually used the word correctly… you obviously didn’t watch the doc…

     

    “Superstition is a deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand is to fall into superstition”

     

    so…Yes I do. And I also, apparently, understand these superstitiously religious people better than you…

     

    The documentary stands as excellent apart from the silly people portrayed in it…if you like natural disasters you should watch it…

    #29278

    Davis
    Participant

    I said yes you could, but then I’d need to really know a whole lot more than this very brief discussion. I think the only two significant questions that are relevant to otherwise intelligent friends who believe in stupid bullshit is the following:

    If you don’t want your friendship monopolized by religious conversation but he insists or the arguments become more agressive than you’re up to, then I don’t see how you can be friends.

    If his religious principles continually test what you consider to be the minimum qualities of a person you consider a friend, then no I don’t see how you can be truly be friends.

    The following applies to all friendships for any reason, but elaborated per religion:

    If his religious behaviour is toxic, then I’d say, unless you are really invested in the friendship…close the door until the toxicity stops.

     

    #29279

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    I’m undecided, because I see 1) both sides of the discussion overgeneralizing to the point of miscommunication (although the conservative/religionist is obviously more stubborn about it); 2) it depends on the history of the relationship, e.g. what if they’re (say) brothers, or have other reasons to maintain a relationship?

    Still, generally speaking but while regarding recently trending nationalism and other selfishness/identity arrogance (including religious kinds), we now need more than ever positive examples of willingness to communicate with each other. Trollumpism brings out the worst in us, and coaxes all hateful trolls and authoritarian-prone reactionaries out of their closets. (Ruh roh, how’s that for a rant?) And hard left, uncontrollable-emotion liberals and other social vandals are reacting negatively too.

    Religion has been used much in the past to gain authority over people, is on the upsurge on the world stage–note both jihadism and christian-righteousness reactions to it.

    But it’s not hopeless, yet. This oldie, from Tim Minchin, Peace Anthem for Palestine:

    #29280

    _Robert_
    Participant

    If I un-friended my religious friends I would be without a social life. And if they keep pressing me I just try to respond with words of wisdom. I was a somewhat skeptical believer myself and if my atheist buddy did not point out the absurdities of my beliefs many times,  I probably would have taken another 5 years to come around.

    #29281
    #29282

    jakelafort
    Participant

    It is always to be decided whether we can remain friends, lovers or partners when the world view of the other is divergent.
    It may be that we are guarding our precious views because they represent our identity. (Each side sees the other in this way.) Or it may be that the other’s outlook reflects ignorance and mean-spirited politics that make us retch.

    It is a greater conundrum when the other has come to our aid and in so doing made a real sacrifice. It is also a head scratcher when the other has exhibited what we define as character. If on the other hand it is a romantic attraction based on physical appearance then we know we are being sell-outs if we go all in. Puntended.

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