Slavery Reparations

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This topic contains 22 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #25795

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Slavery Reparations or as some say “free money for votes” seems to be a real agenda item.  I will not vote for anybody who wants us to pay for an injustice that we had no part of. Nudged to the right once again. Keep it up Dems and we will have Trump again.

    #25816

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Keep it up Dems and we will have Trump again.

    I agree. Because whites are still the boss-majority. They have been for a looooong time.

    (Btw, I’m not in the mainstream nor do I watch mainstream news. I was unaware of this neo-SJW issue, just as I was too-long unaware of the violence and anti-free speech that was going on on campus. I appreciate your post.)

    #25819

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I agree. Because whites are still the boss-majority. They have been for a looooong time.

    There are still plenty of white liberals like me. But I am no leftist. I still believe that if you are creative, intelligent and motivated enough to amass wealth, that you should have the right to keep it if you wish. I wouldn’t bother working so hard if I had to hand it all over. A somewhat progressive tax is as far left as I go. I would favor a simple progressive tax with zero exemptions because finding loopholes has become a thriving business.

    Throughout history any attempts to radically alter the freedom of individuals to thrive and replace that freedom with an authoritarian distribution of wealth have proven to be a disaster for that society. In Venezuela, the land of  state run corporations, the starving people are eating the zoo animals.

    #25820

    Unseen
    Participant

    My problem with reparations is where will it end, and should we ask for reparations from Great Britain for forcing our country’s original settlers to leave so they could freely practice their religion? What about reparations for Native Americans? Women? Gays?

    It would be neverending.

    #25821

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    It would be neverending.

    But professor, that’s known in philosophy as a “slippery slope” fallacy. 🙂

    I think it’s useful to think in terms of what policy could be constructive for everyone, and only temporary, based on periodically evaluated community needs. “Reparations” policy looks more like punitive compensation, when the focus should be on treating current day ailments like ghetto environments, lack of child physical and mental health and educational opportunities. Focus more on health and opportunity for America’s kids who have no control over their circumstances.

    Also include (e.g.) supporting community mitigation of violent gangs, which are often hispanic, not just black culture suffering the aftermath of forced underclass status. That would even include whites, in some cases. Playing the race card usually injects adrenaline, emotionalism, and tribalist finger-pointing that obscures more reasonable solutions.

    Let historians call it reparations, if they like, but we need policy makers to focus on raising overall standards of quality of life.

    #25822

    There are similar calls for reparations being made in England too. Just pointing it out as I feel so much better when I engage in virtue signalling.

    #25823

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Throughout history any attempts to radically alter the freedom of individuals to thrive and replace that freedom with an authoritarian distribution of wealth have proven to be a disaster for that society. In Venezuela, the land of  state run corporations, the starving people are eating the zoo animals.

    I didn’t want to be argumentative at first, but can’t just ignore the bias that’s informing your generalizations. Like tacitly neglecting underclass “freedom of individuals to thrive” as a reasonable issue. Like conflating authoritarianism with the cost of social wellness policy (and a more widely successful health care system, I’m guessing from what I think you’ve said in the past).

    Are you unaware of the vast appreciation Canadians and Europeans have of their socialized health care system? Sure, they have complaints, but how many of those complainers say they wish they had a system like that in USA? A minority of people who can afford to fly over here and pay for special care, maybe. My Japanese ex-wife was appalled at the lack of widely available health care here. If you can blanketly diss leftists, I can blanketly diss Obama haters for lying about the majority of other civilized countries “suffering from their terrible health care systems”.

    We are such blindered idiots when it comes to noticing what actually works best around the world. And “authoritarianism” appears to be a trait that Trump admires in world leaders.

    #25824

    Davis
    Participant

    It would be a great gesture, but the practicalities make it almost impossible and in the end the money everyone gets is chump-change.

    A far better solution is offering services, programs and assistance such as programs that attack poverty head on and ensure affordable housing, education, daycare and necesities for all. Programs that help knock down barriers to getting jobs, accessing services and opportunities and ending discrimination/racism.  That includes taking places where well qualified african-american candidates/students/applicants are less likely to be hired/accepted than white ones. This undeniably happens (similar to the bias against hiring/accepting women). This is the biggest outrage these days, that still an African-American has to work 10 times as hard to get a job, get promoted, be taken seriously…and the whole time next to no one else in the office even notices/believes it. Such programs funded until there is no more bias against African-Americans is a whole lot more useful than reparations. I imagine they will be necessary for decades (perhaps centuries).

    #25825

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I am all for Obama’s Affordable Care Act and think it has been a great improvement especially for the underclasses as you put it. It is not a government run health system. I would be against any large scale attempt for the government to administer and take over my health care. We only need to look at the VA to see what that would look like. Fix the VA first.

    If I am brilliant and want to become a great doctor but I am forced to become a government employee with a set wage…that would be a problem for me. As a patient, if I had to wait 12 or 16 weeks to get in…I will either generally be healed by then or have to head to the emergency room at some point.

    Are you personally willing to give up 40%-60% of your income to support socialized medicine or is that gonna be someone else’s responsibility? The big rock stars that stay in the UK and pay their taxes generally get “knighted”. Many just expat out of there.

    One of the motivations to seek a good job for so many folks that I have known has been the benefit of company-sponsored health insurance. And many stay employed because of it. So now that motivation goes away as well.

    As for Canada I recall that more Canadians immigrate to the US than vice-versa but I can’t find seem to that data right now. There was supposed to be some Trump-inspired mass exodus of Americans headed North but that didn’t seem to happen. With a an aging populace I read that Canada is trying to bring in young immigrant workers to keep that ‘ponzi’ type system running.

    If a democrat (or any politician) proposed a 5-10 year pilot program whereby a smaller scale version of federal or state run socialized medicine was implemented and shown to be effective and cost efficient, I would be in favor of such a “study” to use as a model. Any large sweeping immediate take-over of private health care for a system so HUGE could have dire results.

    How do you propose this state run system should operate?

     

     

     

    #25826

    _Robert_
    Participant

    This is the biggest outrage these days, that still an African-American has to work 10 times as hard to get a job, get promoted, be taken seriously…and the whole time next to no one else in the office even notices/believes it.

    This has not been my experience as a design engineer and engineering department manager in large corporations for 40 years. For decades we have actively recruited African American and female engineers and created company sponsored support groups for all of those who may feel marginalized. We train all engineers on how to be inclusive of all coworkers and any form of racist behavior is handled with zero tolerance. We regularly reach out to the African American community youths to expose them to science and technology with fun demonstrations and sponsorships. There is room at the top as well.  The director of engineering is a woman and the head of manufacturing is a black male.

    #25827

    Unseen
    Participant

    But professor, that’s known in philosophy as a “slippery slope” fallacy. 🙂

    Less like a slippery slope than setting a regrettable precedent.

    #25828

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    I am all for Obama’s Affordable Care Act

    I apologize for mis-remembering your position on ACA.

    I’ve had years of excellent care from the VA health system, both physical and mental. But I can’t speak for others. Just turning 65, I’m discovering the nightmare of Medicare, Rx coverage, extra cost of dental coverage, and the many insurance companies trying to foist their products on me. And apparently it changes every damn year. I’m for ACA as a first step toward a more unified system that the much of the rest of the world proves is feasible.

    Are you personally willing to give up 40%-60% of your income to support socialized medicine or is that gonna be someone else’s responsibility? The big rock stars that stay in the UK and pay their taxes generally get “knighted”. Many just expat out of there.

    Do you have any sources available on that? A quick google led me to the following excerpt from “Health Care Spending in the United States and Other High-Income Countries,” Journal of the American Medical Association, March 13, 2018:

    Conclusions and Relevance The United States spent approximately twice as much as other high-income countries on medical care, yet utilization rates in the United States were largely similar to those in other nations.

    That article is behind a paywall, but another publisher apparently has rights to publish more than JAMA did, e.g.:

    The U.S. pays more for . . .

    • Doctors. The average salary for a general practitioner in the U.S. is $218,173, nearly double the average salary across all high-income countries. Specialists and nurses in the U.S. also earn significantly more than elsewhere.
    • Pharmaceuticals. The U.S. spends $1,443 per person on pharmaceuticals, compared to the average of $749.
    • Health care administration. The U.S. spends 8 percent of total national health expenditures on activities related to planning, regulating, and managing health systems and services, compared to an average 3 percent spent among all high-income countries.

    I don’t trust as true some of the other stuff you’re saying, and suspect further discussion wouldn’t change each other’s mind. But I’ll repeat my observation that people that come here for our health system seem to have a lot of extra money to pay for it. (Like big rock stars?)

    #25829

    Unseen
    Participant

    It would be a great gesture, but the practicalities make it almost impossible and in the end the money everyone gets is chump-change. A far better solution is offering services, programs and assistance such as programs that attack poverty head on and ensure affordable housing, education, daycare and necesities for all. Programs that help knock down barriers to getting jobs, accessing services and opportunities and ending discrimination/racism. That includes taking places where well qualified african-american candidates/students/applicants are less likely to be hired/accepted than white ones. This undeniably happens (similar to the bias against hiring/accepting women). This is the biggest outrage these days, that still an African-American has to work 10 times as hard to get a job, get promoted, be taken seriously…and the whole time next to no one else in the office even notices/believes it. Such programs funded until there is no more bias against African-Americans is a whole lot more useful than reparations. I imagine they will be necessary for decades (perhaps centuries).

    In the US, there are many programs designed to help brown people and poor people generally, and all have had mixed success in doing what it was hoped they would do.

    There’s a saying that goes “With magic, there’s always a price.” The attempt to magically upgrade the wealth and status and even simply the living standards of such folks has come with a hard price in the form of many white folks resenting the idea of letting people cut in front of the in line, as it were; of attitudes amounting to thinking that anyone who gets a job due to an ethnic quota must be undeserving and not as worthy of the job as someone who “really deserved it,’ and so on. Such programs have a sad history of exacerbating the divisions in our society. The price may be worth it in the long run, but you can’t ignore the price.

    #25830

    Unseen
    Participant

    _Robert_ wrote:
    Are you personally willing to give up 40%-60% of your income to support socialized medicine or is that gonna be someone else’s responsibility? The big rock stars that stay in the UK and pay their taxes generally get “knighted”. Many just expat out of there.

    I can’t imagine anyone (or very many) expating out of the US, giving up US citizenship and being unable to return over even 60% taxes, a level of taxation which, as I believe is the case in the UK, would only apply to folks who can absolutely afford to pay that much and still live pretty high on the hog. At some point in the wealth accumulation process, you’re no longer really earning your income, it just comes into your life the way water comes in through a hole in the hull of a boat.

    One of the motivations to seek a good job for so many folks that I have known has been the benefit of company-sponsored health insurance. And many stay employed because of it. So now that motivation goes away as well.

    Michael Moore’s instructive movie Sicko starts off with some medical horror stories, and of course the assumption is that this is the fate of people without health insurance. WRONG! They are all people who had health insurance but the insurance didn’t help them. Oh, most insurance companies are happy to shell out $100 or $1000 or even $10,000, but at some point they will send the policy to a department whose assignment is to figure out reasons for not paying claims.

    As for Canada I recall that more Canadians immigrate to the US than vice-versa but I can’t find seem to that data right now. There was supposed to be some Trump-inspired mass exodus of Americans headed North but that didn’t seem to happen. With a an aging populace I read that Canada is trying to bring in young immigrant workers to keep that ‘ponzi’ type system running.

    You seem to be implying that they are leaving Canada in order to bask in the glow of America’s health care system. Somehow, I doubt that. BTW, in happiness surveys, Canadians are up near the top of the list and Americans way down near the bottom, so a lot of those Canadians leaving Canada for the US might be experience some buyer’s regret after a while.

    If a democrat (or any politician) proposed a 5-10 year pilot program whereby a smaller scale version of federal or state run socialized medicine was implemented and shown to be effective and cost efficient, I would be in favor of such a “study” to use as a model. Any large sweeping immediate take-over of private health care for a system so HUGE could have dire results.’

    I agree that just ending the current system on some day in the near future would be disastrous, if only by putting tens (hundreds?) of thousands of insurance company workers in the bread line.

    At the same time, while one of the main reasons doctors hate the ACA is due to the paperwork, they also hate the insurance companies for much the same reason, and because they often have to provide services to patients without any guarantee that the insurance company will pay. Of course, that makes the patient responsible, but there’s no guarantee the patient will be able to pay, either. And a very large part of the high cost of health care in the US is profit. It makes sense that taking profit out of the mix must help reduce health care costs.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #25832

    Davis
    Participant

    This has not been my experience as a design…

    You should directly ask African-American coleagues, women colleagues and any other marginalized people in the office (including those in mid-level and low-level ranks). Ask them directly, clearly, openly, sincerely what their experiences have been like. If they mention experiences, its more than possible they are true. Not everything happens out in the open. Even a few bad apples can make work a toxic environment. One cannot notice every employee who is being ignored/interrupted/looked-over. If they don’t relate bad experiences, then that’s awesome. you must have a really nice work environment. If the do, then things aren’t as peachy as they seemed. You can find out so much about the office by just asking people. Even ask your wife/daughter and friends who are minorities/LGTBQ+ etc about their own experiences at work and in public. Let me know if you were surprised or not by what people said.

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