Strap in: It's starting.

[jakelafortParticipant]

What a piece of shit video. Stop posting garbage man. Al Jazeera.
Or keep posting it. i just won’t waste my time again. If you really want to understand the historicity ya gotta read a few books. It is leaving out so much history. It is pathetic. And why wouldn’t it be misleading?
It is propaganda. Duh.

Yea of course the region would be a mess with or without Israel. How many of those conflicts, genocides, civil wars, atrocities, acts of terrorism have zero to do with Israel?

It may turn out that Israel adds stability by being the fillip to overthrow that rotten Islamic Iranian regime. Or by neutralizing the threat Iran poses to the region.

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Robert

But how many of those baddies would exist except in response to Israel?

By your standard the Iroquois Confederacy is a nation-state.  Like the European Jews, they were forced off their land and either forced onto reservations (open air concentration camps) or forced into the general colonial population where they are often reviled and/or subjected to discrimination and prejudice. The parallels are strong.

So, maybe the colonial power (US and Canadian Governments) should give them their land back(?). This would include almost all of Michigan and good-sized chunks of Northern Ohio, Northwestern Pennsylvania, Western New York State, as well as a big chunk of Southern Ontario, Canada.

 

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@_Robert_

And no, you don’t get to arbitrarily pick a date when Israel began just because it is in the modern era. There are very few places where the very original inhabitants are still there, and Israel is one of them. In fact, the entire Middle East was absolutely non-Muslim until they conquered the region through war while worshiping their warlord Mohammed, peace be upon him/s.

Jewish presence in the region known as Israel dates back thousands of years. Archaeological and historical evidence indicates that the area, particularly the city of Jerusalem, has been inhabited by Jewish communities since around 1200 BCE. The early Israelites are believed to have settled there during the Late Bronze Age, establishing a kingdom in the land by around the 10th century BCE, with King David and his successor Solomon ruling over what became known as the Kingdom of Israel and Judah.

Throughout history, Jewish communities remained in the land, even after the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE) and the Roman conquests, which led to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the subsequent dispersion (or “diaspora”) of many Jewish people. Despite these challenges, there was a continuous, though often small, Jewish presence in the region under various empires, including Roman, Byzantine, Islamic, Crusader, Ottoman, and British rule.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the modern Zionist movement began, with many Jews returning to the area that is now Israel. It is the same land that was called the Kingdom of Israel and Judah 12 centuries earlier. This culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, restoring Jewish sovereignty in the region for the first time in almost two millennia.

Once Hamas pays for its crimes with its very existence and Hezbollah are diminished enough to no longer be a threat, then the area will be safer. It’s not like these Iranian factions want the land. They just want to murder Jews. It is their stated aim. So Israel will probably have to remain ready for war for a long time yet. It will keep protecting itself when attacked. If we want peace in the Middle East then the Islamic Dictatorship of Iran needs to stand down. Israel will not attack anyone unless provoked.

 

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

The Jewish people were looking for a state and a homeland – as are the Palestinians.  They have the homeland without the state.  It seems like the Palestinians are being used as footballs by all sides.

A middle-Eastern homeland and state for a middle-Eastern people seems like a reasonable idea in principle, for both sides.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Simon, The Arabs leaders refused the 2 State solution that the Jewish leaders had accepted, back in 1947.  The Palestinians could have had their own State but decided they wanted more of the land designated to the Jewish State.  That was two years after the world learned about the Holocaust. A year later they found themselves in another war.

[_Robert_Participant]

 

Unseen wrote:

@ Robert But how many of those baddies would exist except in response to Israel? By your standard the Iroquois Confederacy is a nation-state. Like the European Jews, they were forced off their land and either forced onto reservations (open air concentration camps) or forced into the general colonial population where they are often reviled and/or subjected to discrimination and prejudice. The parallels are strong. So, maybe the colonial power (US and Canadian Governments) should give them their land back(?). This would include almost all of Michigan and good-sized chunks of Northern Ohio, Northwestern Pennsylvania, Western New York State, as well as a big chunk of Southern Ontario, Canada.

Yes, we can dam-well give Native Americans sizeable, livable lands and various reparations and as our morality matures, and we are doing just that. There are so few left now. See, that’s the difference. We admit that they migrated here from Russia and Mongolia many thousands of years ago and that our ancestors were European colonizers that killed them off with weapons, new diseases and drove them from their lands. In my State of Florida, the Native Americans who ended up down here are doing pretty well now. It helps that we stopped killing them. Unfortunately, the truly indigenous tribes are all dead and gone centuries ago. All that remains of them are mounds of oyster shells and the bastardized names the Spanish gave to rivers and lakes.

Ask a Palestinian what religion their pre-Muslim ancestors were, and their brains short-circuit. And it’s not like Israel doesn’t welcome Arab citizens (who don’t want to murder every Jew they see.) In fact, those are the Muslims typically doing well. They hate this ‘river to the sea’ BS. As if there is not enough sand for everyone.

The stupidest thing ever is that some Palestinians have Ottoman ancestors who intermingled with the Jews Reg is speaking about, centuries ago. They have the same friggin’ Canaanite DNA as the ones they hate so much.

https://www.science.org/content/article/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry

I think what is important thing is to simply and sincerely acknowledge the shitty things people did and resolve to try hard to stop it. You can’t reverse time and undo all the wrongs, but you dam well should teach them and work as a society to do better. I see nothing like that in the Muslim world with its iron age morality and laws.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

The Jewish people were looking for a state and a homeland – as are the Palestinians. They have the homeland without the state. It seems like the Palestinians are being used as footballs by all sides. A middle-Eastern homeland and state for a middle-Eastern people seems like a reasonable idea in principle, for both sides.

You can do better with facts than that, Simon. It may take a few hours to study all of the attempts to bring peace and who fucked it up. The saddest part is now Israel does have a growing group of fundamentalists to deal with. No doubt a reaction to the daily fucking barrage of missiles and attacks aimed at Israel for decades.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Actually widespread knowlege of the Holocaust was 1942 or 1943. Not only did the people in the region that is today Jordan, Egypt, West Bank and Gaza reject a state in 1947 but the greater Arab world as well. That is why a coalition attacked immediately. They wanted it all.

Nothing has fundamentally changed in the Arab/Muslim world since 1947…throw in Iran also in that there is NO ACCEPTANCE of any Jewish State. Islam is a supremacist religion and all over the middle east there is an obsession with destroying Israel and murdering Jews. It is particularly bad in Gaza where there are so many UNWRA schools & those schools are indistinguishable from Hamas schools which produce a steady stream of terrorists. Interestingly Israel is about to pass legislation to restrict UNWRA and of course there is widespread opposition when anyone in favor of peace should support the legislation. Nothing will be achieved there in terms of peace until the indoctrination stops. Western style schools are needed! Just not the newest rendition with the eastern studies racism. It is the worst kind of child abuse of Palestinain kids and it insures an ongoing cycle of violence. I have read and listened to a great many people who live/lived in middle east and it is same story all over middle east. Have not heard one voice that contradicts the aforementioned obsession with killing Jews and ending Israel. So two states is just chimerical now. Israelis need to feel that they won’t be under attack from their Palestinian neighbors. Palestinians have to want a state of their own and acknowledge Israel aint goin anywhere. The Gazans had a de facto state in which Israel forcibly removed ten thousand or so of its citizens but they F’d it up royally as a direct result of the mindset caused by the Islamic mind virus and indoctrination against Jews and Israel. Outside world funded Hamas.

What They Are Actually Teaching Kids in UNRWA Schools and Summer Camps

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

You can do better with facts than that, Simon.

I know, but it’s so intricate, it’s hard to keep track of.

[UnseenParticipant]

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Yea of course the region would be a mess with or without Israel. How many of those conflicts, genocides, civil wars, atrocities, acts of terrorism have zero to do with Israel?

A mess perhaps, but one threatening to trigger a new world war? Explain.

 

[UnseenParticipant]

Hey, guess who’s been using human shields.

[_Robert_Participant]

LOL, good one Unseen. Using human shields against HAMAS, LOL. This is so fucking stupid, as if HAMAS would give a damn who they kill. CNN forgot that HAMAS is in the martyr business. It’s like the MAGA/Trump/Nazi playbook. Just accuse your enemies of exactly what you are doing.

Well, Gaza is a pile of rubble. How is that ‘river to the sea’ bullshit working out for them? Yet still not enough brains or courage to get the Iranian Mullah overlords out of Palestine. Even the Iranian people can’t stand them, but there they are, paying off all those shitheads.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

The video about what the UNWRA summer camps teach children is very….what’s the word I am looking for?

From Jalealfort’s post above.

• This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer.
• This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer.

[jakelafortParticipant]

“Just accuse your enemies of exactly what you are doing.”

Can you imagine the reaction of the far left (that Unseen occupies on this one issue only) if Israelis were identical in their governance, in their behavior, in their ethics to Muslims? And not simply the steady stream of Islamic terrorists, just mainstream run of the mill middle eastern Muslims? The one and only half way decent nation with ethics that make the surrounding nations look like depraved troglodytes and it is the hyperfocus and only focus!

I constantly see that strategy playing out for the far left. All of the sins of the west are projected onto Israel. Genocide, colonialism, apartheid and it goes beyond simple projection. Higher standards are demanded of Jews. The very right to self determination goes unchallenged for every other group. Zionism is the new cover word for expressing antisemitism. No such parallel for Islamic nations and their ambitions to dominate the world. Why should they have suzerainty over their sheeple? Why should they be permitted to create untold misery and threaten the outside world with their missionary monster cult? Ever hear that sort of sentiment? Not me. No issue with partition of India in 1947 that resulted in over a million killed and over 10 million sent packing along with countless atrocities. If ever the formation and establishment of a nation is justified it is Israel. And in the aftermath of recently being attacked and the far left kicking the dog while it is down along with the trenchant antisemitism of the world that only reinvents itself affirms the obvious. No need to question the right of nations to exist albeit their formation with far less justification or none whatsoever. Just naked aggression. And Israel is there Jew haters. Deal with it.

Anyone who cares about humanity and the suffering of Palestinians should be hoping Hamas is utterly destroyed and discredited. Same for all of the Muslim terrorist groups. Glorifying it is mindnumbingly stupid. Depicting it as a legitimate resistance to Israel and a nation that never was (Palestine) and a world that could not have cared less about the people who lived in the region until it was Jews inures to the detriment of the Palestinians and insures the constant cycle of futile violence. No question in my mind education is the only way things will get better there. Egging on the Palestinians to sacrifice themselves might meet your Jew hating blood lust but it is an utter betrayal of the Palestinians. Instead they need to have the actual history of the region explained and inculcated, the good and the bad on both sides. An end to the obsession with ending Israel and killing Jews!

So that means UNWRA must be exposed for the instrument of terrorism and manufacturing of hatred that it is. Its existence is a bane not only to Israelis but to the Palestinians. Keep doing the same dumb destructive degenerate shit or change shit?

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