We need a Middle Eastern mulligan

[jakelafortParticipant]

From Robert:

The point you made for me is that the Jewish religion (as well as it’s child religions of christianity and islam) is the true driver for division, not some ‘independent’ aspects of culture, if there are any. Let’s take a look at “the promised land”. What kind of secular Jewish tradition is that? A fake god made a fake promise to the fake chosen people, and now we have this bloody mess in “the holy land”. It’s a prophesy and the Christians who share the same verse were glad to help it along. No, there won’t be some Jewish nation in the American southwest as unseen suggests. You have fundie Jews building illegal settlements all over Palestine because ‘god’. Now the swords of Mohammad and David are back at it, and horrible human suffering is unleashed once again.

The Jewish religion is the sine qua non of Christianity and Islam. It is the cause in fact. To draw a parallel to law it is not the proximate cause. The Jews did not say Christ was the shit (if such a person lived). The Jews do not go around with missionaries and spread the good word by the sword. In fact they don’t want you! The Jews unlike Christians and Muslims have no interest in going out into the world to conquer peoples and land. If the Arabs had acted as the Jews in accepting the state that was granted by UN resolution and just gone about their business there would be NO CONFLICT.

I’ve already explained that the return to their ancient home is not about religious BS with a promised land and chosen people. It is about the intolerance and hatred of Jews that had their very survival hanging in the balance. Zionist authors being atheist and simply reading the landscape advocated for a Jewish state. And again well before the holocaust the hand writing was on the walls. In fact other possible places for a Jewish state were suggested by zionist authors. Had the holy land been the decisive factor then no other places would be contemplated. If the promised land BS was paramount why were Jews other than the ones who remained in modern Israel settled all over the globe (while enduring persecution) without a movement to return to the promised land? No, it wasn’t until the rise of fascism and seething anti-Jewish sentiment erupted. And then after the holocaust nations not willing to receive Jewish survivors. Furthermore as aforementioned the orthodox Jews do not approve of Israel. It is not in their delusion how it is supposed to go down. So stop with the phony narrative. You introduced this topic with some BS about the religious morons on both sides are killing each other again. That is crap on your part.

If Islamic terrorists infiltrated USA and unleashed a similar wave of terror would you characterize it that way? The Palestinians are overwhelmingly religious. The Jews are not. Jews both in USA and Israel have a healthy population of atheists. Also it should be noted that the attack by Hamas was not in response to some recent provocation. Jews withdrew from Gaza some time ago and even supply water and electricity free to the Palestinians in Gaza. No, Hamas is on a mission to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. That is not how Jews in Israel are with Palestinians. They could of course wipe them out in a heartbeat. Commit genocide. But that is not their objective in spite of the omnipresent threat. So again stop with the BS narrative. Harris makes this point very clearly in that 14 minute vid i linked. If Jews were just orthodox morons could they possibly have had the insane intellectual impact on the world that is so incongruent with their tiny numbers?

Hatred being a result of religion point that you make is obvious although i think you go a bit too far. There is crossover between culture and religion. Religions sprung up all over the world and are fiction but they could not possibly have been divorced from the mores of the greater culture. And also division between peoples, between groups, is an unfortunate function of our evolution. But you don’t have to persuade me about how evil religion is. You will not likely run into many who are as antitheistic as i. I have always hated religion more for the impact on civilization than the perpetuation of absurd lies.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Fellow Unbelievers,

The problem of homelands and refugees could be solved now, and really, could have been solved many yesterday’s ago, with the technology of man-made coral islands and seasteading platforms, such as those advocated by The Seasteading Institute:

The Seasteading Institute

Home

In fact, the offshore platform was invented about the same time as Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist Movement:

Oil Platform–Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_platform

Jews and Arabs and anyone else could have platform homelands with glass bottoms for sunlight to feed the plankton for fish feeding, which then can feed humans, along with livestock and fruits and vegetables brought on board, along with manufacturing, service industries, schools, arms and security, and everything else humans use and enjoy!

But of course, The Seasteading Institute is run by (((Patri Friedman))), Grandson of Free-Market Economist (((Milton Friedman))), snd the Muslim nations and Hamas hate Jews more than they love the Palestinian Arabs they claim to love and support.

So here is we, on the raggedy edge…

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,ju

Innocents, of course, are fair game in war. But Hamas, like Al-Fatah and other Islamic terrorists and regimes elsewhere, deliberately put their armaments they use against Israel and other Unbelievers in apartments, schools, mosques, medical facilities, and other civilian habitations and workplaces. This is equally against The Laws of War as well as against simple basic humanity!

Hamas is about to get a bunch of Innocents Arabs slaughtered as dead as the Israelis they’ve already slaughtered.

Someone needs to send in infiltrators to set Hamas members against each other and to sabotage their weaponry before this gets any bigger or worse.

[UnseenParticipant]

Suppose Israel never existed. You probably live in an area with Jews (most of us do) and live peacefully side by side with them. Then the UN decides it needs to create a Jewish state somewhere and they decide that the place where you live is where they’ll do it. They do it without consulting with you, your neighbors, and your fellow former citizens.

And then,  European Jews start rolling in and together with the local Jews they set up a Jewish state. Suddenly, you down own your land in the full sense of the word because the new state can decide, if they like, that it belongs to a European Jewish family, so you get moved to some less desirable plot.

Starting to appreciate the Palestinian’s point of view? Now, not all Palestinians are big fans of Hamas, but they have few legitimate representatives in Israel and no power at all other than Hamas and other patriotic “terror” groups.

Palestinians and Jews have lived together in peace. They did so during the Ottoman Empire. It was once that expert at fucking things up came along, The British Empire, that the two groups were played off against each other.

There is no peace possible in the area without being able to see the Palestinian point of view.

[UnseenParticipant]

Now, as to Sam Harris and his smug obsession with war crimes. I’m going to make the argument that war crimes can be okay in some circumstances.

How in the world? That’s total insanity! Is it?

Suppose that that you’re in a situation you perceive as unjust. A situation that threatens your freedom, costs you your land, and if left as it is, leaves you with an unjust destiny. There is a way out, but it involves terrorizing your oppressor with war crimes.

Do you just fatalistically accept the oppression or do you fight it with whatever means are at hand?

Okay, I have described the situation of the Palestinians in Israel, who once owned the land (along with the native Jews) until it was given over to European Jews along with the native Jews.

Gee, I wonder where the seeds of the conflict came from?

I hear people asking in the news, how can the protesters side with terrorists? I just explained how.

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Enco

The flaw in your argument is that there are laws in war other than the necessity of winning.

Can you imagine the leader of a defeated country explaining to his now subjugated and oppressed people “You know, we could have won, but it would have involved committing crimes under the Geneva Convention. And we are signatories of that treaty”?

I can’t. You fight a war to win using whatever means are necessary. It may mean bombing Dresden, Hiroshima, or London.

That’s the nature of war.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Was about to go on a rant. But fuck it. Aint worth it. I wont be persuaded by nonsense. And i doubt i will make any impression on anyone else. We make up our minds and evidence/arguments/reason be damned. Waste of time and bp elevator is getting off at the next floor.

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Was about to go on a rant. But fuck it. Aint worth it. I wont be persuaded by nonsense. And i doubt i will make any impression on anyone else. We make up our minds and evidence/arguments/reason be damned. Waste of time and bp elevator is getting off at the next floor.

Five or ten years ago, I would have been a total sympathizer with Israel in this situation, so I can change my mind. And I did so by listening and engaging.

What you are doing is running away from a discussion you fear might change your mind.

[UnseenParticipant]

Guess who is siding with the Palestinians?

From one of the comments on the above video:

I am half Israeli, and after seeing Palestinian people who have lost everything, and all the destruction done to houses, commercial buildings and even mosques, I can only say I apologize for all the support I have ever given to Israel. I wish the Israeli government could at least acknowledge all the sufferings it caused to Palestinians.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Fellow Unbelievers,

The attacks by Hamas on Israel are a learning curve for all of us. Evidently, Israel’s citizenry aren’t as well-armed as I previously thought:

Israel Preparing For War Beyond Gaza? Netanyahu Arms Israeli Citizens Near Lebanon Border, West Bank
https://www.hindustantimes.com/videos/world-news/israel-preparing-for-war-beyond-gaza-netanyahu-arms-israeli-citizens-near-lebanon-border-west-bank-101697171540887.html

Nevertheless, my basic points about an armed citizenry still stand.

Also, Israel’s Mossad must be getting as rotten as the U.S. C.I.A. at detecting and foreseeing threats as well. Must wait and see more…

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Ackshuyally, 5he Ottoman Empire used Sha’ria law, under which Christians and Jews are second- and third-class citizens, who aren’t free to build houses of worship bigger than mosques, who aren’t free to restore old houses of worship, who must defer to Muslims on the sidewalk and in administration of government, and, above all, who are not free to ride horses or bear arms. Some “peace” huh?

• This reply was modified 1 year ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Unseen wrote:

Guess who is siding with the Palestinians?

Are you pointing to the guest in the interview, just one person?

Do you agree with him that reports of beheaded babies were fabricated?

Even if the reports of beheading are true, he made a good point imo that destroying buildings in Gaza has the same effect on babies, children, moms, and even civilian men who don’t support Hamas, not just by the hundreds, but what looks to be destruction that will affect thousands, or maybe even tens of thousands.

I’m seeing evil on both sides, much of it backed by theocratic and/or authoritarianist endeavors, and I have no idea how any outsider, including ourselves, can fix that or make a dent. I don’t even see how citizens underneath those brands of rule can take control in these recent times of iron man rule, and I’m including Putin as one of the evil men.

I at least listened to all of the video you suggested in the background, and I didn’t catch any plausible solutions from them, either, at least not in the near future. Perhaps USA supporting Israel to the large degree it has is just as destructive in the long run what you say aide to Ukraine is?

Although the difference I see is that Putin is also partly responsible for helping to enable Hamas, via support of Iran, and it would be better for the world at large if he could be removed from the picture. Enrichening North Korea by buying arms from them can’t be good for the world in the long term, either, nor for North Koreans under their dear leader’s thumb.

• This reply was modified 12 months ago by  PopeBeanie. Reason: chg'd last sentence to add "Enrichening NK"

[DavisModerator]

Innocents, of course, are fair game in war

So says every war lord who perpetrates pointless horrific war crimes. If terrorising civilians goes to achieve your aim, then so is justifiable China’s crimes against the Uighurs, the Myanmar campaign against the Rohingya, British soldiers randomly shooting N. Ireland Catholics who gave them a funny look (and got off Scot free), Serbs liquidating Bosnian men of military age, Russian currently bombing Ukrainian hospitals.

The same argument can be used by militants. Under this logic, for Jihaddists, blowing up the World Trade Centre was fair game to achieve their aims as are the daily acts of terrorism in Europe. As were the unspeakable atrocities committed by the so called Islamic state.  Allowing avoidable deaths and terrorising of civilians is there for a reason, doing so creates a genuine slippery slope.

Under the logic of war crimes are for sissies, 9/11 would be as fair game as any of the thousands of war crimes committed by America in the last century. All war crimes are unjustifiable.

• This reply was modified 12 months ago by  Davis.
• This reply was modified 12 months ago by  Davis.

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Unseen, Ackshuyally, 5he Ottoman Empire used Sha’ria law, under which Christians and Jews are second- and third-class citizens, who aren’t free to build houses of worship bigger than mosques, who aren’t free to restore old houses of worship, who must defer to Muslims on the sidewalk and in administration of government, and, above all, who are not free to ride horses or bear arms. Some “peace” huh?

Well, I think you’ll nevertheless have to admit that the scale of actual terror against Jews began starting with the imposition of the creation of the artificial State of Israel by Western powers, which “improved” (LOL)  the freedom of the Palestinians under Israel in marked ways affecting peace in Israel:

First, Israel has imposed various restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem which never existed before the creation of the State of Israel. Checkpoints, roadblocks, and barriers limit their ability to travel within these territories and even to enter Israel. A permit system is in place for Palestinians to enter Israel.

Second, the expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank has resulted in the confiscation of Palestinian land and restricted the freedom of movement and expansion of Palestinian communities. Hmm, some “freedom,” eh?

Third, security measures such as curfews, home demolitions, and arrests are used in response to security threats, but they can also result in restrictions on the freedom of Palestinian residents. Imagine if America curfewed black, Hispanic, and Asian Americans.

Fourth, the Gaza Strip has been under a blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2007, restricting the movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza, impacting the economy and daily life of Palestinian “citizens.” Imagine if American minorities were treated this way on basically a racial basis.

Fifth, in East Jerusalem, Palestinians are granted residency, which provides them certain rights but not full citizenship. This affects their access to services and their ability to participate in the political process.

Sixth, Palestinians often have to pass through security checkpoints when traveling within the West Bank, which can be time-consuming and result in delays they never had to endure before. But why should they resent this imposition on land where they used to be able to travel freely?

Finally, many Palestinians are held in Israeli prisons, under allegations of mistreatment and concerns over due process.

Is it any wonder Hamas exists?

Some “freedom,” eh?

[jakelafortParticipant]

Straw dog backwards is god warts. Dogma is amgod.

[Author]

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