What is God?

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This topic contains 130 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Dang Martin 4 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #3776

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @kyrani – how do you account for all the present day species, and all the fossil species?  How do you account for the family tree of life?

    What did God do?

    #3777

    Kyrani Eade
    Participant

    It’s a huge leap from Deism to Theism. That there could have been a sentient creator is a conceptually feasible idea. That this creator then gave a shit about a tiny blue dot in its massive creation is highly questionable. That human beings are then imagined not only to be the reason for the creation, but also involved in regular communication with the primal force is yet another non-sequitur.

    Deism (Latin) means belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.

    Theism (Greek) belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

    I am a theist by these definitions.

    The reason, I believe, that God created this Universe and others as well as all sentient beings, is for God’s pleasure and entertainment, which includes the raising of conscious beings to the highest level of consciousness, so they are fully awakened in spirit.

    Why does God care about every last little bit of creation, even the well-being of microbes?

    My answer is because God uphold the information that brings the material into being, in the Mind of God, by the Divine Consciousness. So there is non-local consciousness. This maintains the living systems of all organisms, it maintains the properties of all inanimate objects, e.g., atoms forming crystals etc.

    So there is intimate involvement on every level. There is no way that the Universe and everything in it would exist and function without God. So God does care, even for the grains of sands on the beach right upto humans and other high level beings on other planets.

    #3778

    _Robert_
    Participant

    It’s a huge leap from Deism to Theism. That there could have been a sentient creator is a conceptually feasible idea. That this creator then gave a shit about a tiny blue dot in its massive creation is highly questionable. That human beings are then imagined not only to be the reason for the creation, but also involved in regular communication with the primal force is yet another non-sequitur.

    Deism (Latin) means belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.

    Theism (Greek) belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

    I am a theist by these definitions.

    The reason, I believe, that God created this Universe and others as well as all sentient beings, is for God’s pleasure and entertainment, which includes the raising of conscious beings to the highest level of consciousness, so they are fully awakened in spirit.

    Why does God care about every last little bit of creation, even the well-being of microbes?

    My answer is because God uphold the information that brings the material into being, in the Mind of God, by the Divine Consciousness. So there is non-local consciousness. This maintains the living systems of all organisms, it maintains the properties of all inanimate objects, e.g., atoms forming crystals etc.

    So there is intimate involvement on every level. There is no way that the Universe and everything in it would exist and function without God. So God does care, even for the grains of sands on the beach right upto humans and other high level beings on other planets.

    So god is entertained by children with brain cancer….nice.

    #3779

    Kyrani Eade
    Participant

    @Kyrani – how does Intelligent Design account for cancer? Was that a smart move? What about the river worm that burrows into the back of people’s eyeballs? Why did God Design that? What does Intelligent Design amount to, apart from Goddidit? Presumably, its explanatory power, when you come to a new situation, is limited to Goddidit.

    Intelligent design accounts for cancer because stem cells change the genetic expression in one of their daughter cells so as to create a cancer stem cells, from which other cancer cells are made. And that was not God creating them. It is us, as co-creators that create them. This is a smart move because it means that when we change our perceptions, we can stimulate the cells to reverse the process and become normal cells again. This is the nuts and bolts of spontaneous remission.

    River worms normal habitat is not in the back of people’s eyeballs. But of course if they  come into contact with them they may get into the back of people’s eyeballs. We live within a natural world where there are advantages and disadvantages. It is not about a puppet show.

    I don’t see intelligent design simply as Goddidit. I do see that God uphold all the information/ ideas in the Mind of God, which bring creation into being, but each sentient being has some level of intelligence due to being conscious. So  their reactivity will bring about changes.

    I would say that there is some set of rules, which governs information, which we see as the genetic code. That set of rules, together with the reactions of sentient beings brings about changes. The official point of view of cancer is that genes get damaged or miscopied and that the cell then  divides uncontrollably and becomes cancer.

    Then on the other hand they are trying justify what they see. For instance the immune system, far, far from killing cancer cells, ASSISTS cancer cells in many ways, particularly in metastasis. So they then say that the cancer has evolved to evade detection on the one hand AND co-opt the immune system on the other. That is rubbish.

    And that is not to mention that millions of people get the same cancers and the changes in the genome, which amounts to tens of thousands of gene involvement, is similar enough as to be talking about genetic signatures for different cancers. And to use these as a diagnostic tool.

    If the genes got damaged or malfunctioned and that evolution supposedly took place as to develop into cancer, then the phenomenon we see of millions of people with similar genetic changes, would mean that they by chance made the same mutations as to arrive at similar enough genetic signatures. I don’t know about you, but I find that over the top garbage. The only way you can get genetic signatures is if there were deliberate changes and for a purpose. This is what I observed. The science backs my findings.

     

    #3780

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @kyrani – if evolution isn’t true, then what is the alternative explanation for how all the animals and plants got here, and how the ground is full of fossils, which all link up into a family tree extending back from the present day, through geological history, getting generally simpler and simpler as we go backwards?

    You’re not filling me in on what you DO believe, only on what you DON’T believe.  You don’t believe in evolution.  What DO you believe, instead?  You must have thought about it, or there must be an off-the-shelf explanation for all this, available from the Intelligent Design camp.

    What is the generally accepted Intelligent Design explanation, for species as we know them?  Can you state what it is, without mentioning evolution and how that’s not true?

     

     

    bring creation into being

    – that’s not it.  That is Goddidit again.

    #3781

    Kyrani Eade
    Participant

    So god is entertained by children with brain cancer….nice.

    God does not give the children cancer, brain cancer or any other. Nor is God entertained by such. It is foul game play of inhumane people, who affect the mother or father or caregiver covertly in order to affect the child.

    We are not puppets in a puppet show. We have free will and we can use intent. This is being exploited by deceiving people and that needs exposure because the mother / father/caregiver (has to be humane person whether parent or caregiver) can get their children well again, without the need of medical treatments.

    #3782

    At last!! Someone played the Free Will card!

    #3783

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Do you believe that God made it look as if evolution is true, and as if we’re all descended from a common ancestor that existed billions of years ago, through planting fossils in the Earth, and creating genetic and other similarities between living and extinct species – but that really, this is just an elaborate deception on the part of God, to make us believe in evolution?

    That would be possible.  But then, you would have to agree that the present situation makes it look as if evolution is true.  And then, that would imply that all science is meaningless.

    I feel that your positive arguments in favour of Intelligent Design are under-rehearsed.

    #3785

    _Robert_
    Participant

     

    Kyrani Wrote: So there is intimate involvement on every level. There is no way that the Universe and everything in it would exist and function without God. So God does care, even for the grains of sands on the beach right upto humans and other high level beings on other planets.

    I am not satisfied with your answer, blaming cancer on “foul play” of people. Every minute 20 children under 5 years of age die in their parents arms, yet you say “God does care, even for the grains of sands on the beach”.  Obviously you must believe your god knows about each and every one of his suffering innocent children. Your all powerful god.  Is this when you tell us that god works in mysterious ways, or it’s part of some plan (then why pray?) or the evil in the world is our fault (someone ate an apple, LOL).

    #3786

    _Robert_
    Participant

    My biggest issue with the holy books and the religions that claim a revelation of some sort is that nothing in the revelation is ever included that could not have been written by the people of the day. God could have told us about bacteria and infections/illness. He could have told us the earth orbits the sun or given us a combustion engine, the secrets of renewable energy or a telescope or mentioned that that e=mc2. But no, instead we get a magic trick, water to wine. Some miracle, the ancients had no idea about fermentation. Mentally ill are cured of demons. Jesus cures a few lepers. He does’t eradicate leprosy, no. It just smacks of human mediocrity.

    #3787

    God
    Participant

    Kyrani: “All of natural world science can’t tell me anything”

    Why do you then proceed to use multiple products of science, including computers, and the internet?

    Why Kyrani?

    #3788

    Kyrani Eade
    Participant

    @kyrani – if evolution isn’t true, then what is the alternative explanation for how all the animals and plants got here, and how the ground is full of fossils, which all link up into a family tree extending back from the present day, through geological history, getting generally simpler and simpler as we go backwards? You’re not filling me in on what you DO believe, only on what you DON’T believe. You don’t believe in evolution. What DO you believe, instead? You must have thought about it, or there must be an off-the-shelf explanation for all this, available from the Intelligent Design camp. What is the generally accepted Intelligent Design explanation, for species as we know them? Can you state what it is, without mentioning evolution and how that’s not true? bring creation into being” – that’s not it. That is Goddidit again.

    There are fossils but there are precious few outside of the Cambrian period. And the fossils we find in the Cambrian period do NOT show any half way body forms, which is to say there are no fossils found that fit the presupposed ideas of Darwin. Darwin supposed that life evolved from simple to more complex. Thus he presented the idea of a common ancestor and on that supposition he built a phylogenic tree on his presuppositions and NOT on the evidence.

    Darwin saw small changes in animals he collected as for example the Galapagos finches’ beak size and shape.  And from that sort of evidence he presupposed changes that amount to changes in body forms and one species turning into another. He never went back to the Galapagos Islands to observe the areas and the birds etc., that were there later on. So the evidence is incomplete and does not give a family tree. Rather the evidence we have from extensive fossil records collected from all over the world show a sudden appearance of complex animals and plants. This would give many unconnected blades of grass growing in a field.

    It is later that geneticists have seen similarities in the way that cells are structured and their functions and hence also similarities in genes. How do we explain this?

    I was neutral on evolution up until I had cancer the third time. Up until then I had just accepted what I was taught at university. I didn’t major in biology but I have enough biology to be able to read biological research papers and understand them. Anyway to explain to you what I saw at the cellular and sub-cellular level, I have to give you a short account of my experiences with cancer first because things happened that alerted me enough to investigate.

    The first time I had cancer it was stage 4 ovarian cancer with mets to the uterus, cervix, bowel and both lungs. The doctors said “nothing we can do for you”. I ended up having a spontaneous remission having had moved away from where I had been living. I had moved away partly because I wanted to go to Sydney (I live in Cairns about 2,500 kms north) to get the second opinion BUT also because I felt that some people around me were a bad influence. That’s all I knew then. That was in 1993. I could not say why I had the spontaneous remission.

    In April-May of 2004 I got cancer again but this time there were events that made me think. I had been cheated over what appeared to be a small issue by some people, and that issue mysterious kept coming up episodically and made me angry. I began to develop a sore throat and what I thought was the flu from the symptoms I was experiencing. Within a few weeks I had great difficulty in swallowing solid food. I had to puree my food so I realized I had a lump in my esophagus.

    Then one day, after about 5 or 6 weeks of being sick, especially with the flu and inability to eat my food, I suddenly saw, out of my window, a man trampling on a tree seedling in my front yard. I became extremely angry, more than I thought was warranted and I threw something over my shoulders and went down to the front of my drive way and took him to task. He tried to pretend he didn’t know what I was talking about. After about 15 mins I sorted the matter and the issue was resolved. But when I went back inside my house I found that I was feeling well again. The flu was gone! How could this happen? How could the flu just evaporate in 15 or 20 mins.? I never had this happen before. Then when I looked over my diary notes I realized that there was a combination of emotions that would explain high and low metabolism, feeling hot and cold, sweating, fever etc. I realized it was not the flu but flu-like symptoms. And in the span of another 2 or 3 weeks the lump was gone and I could swallow any and all foods easily.

    Finally in Nov. 2004 there was a new issue created and within a month I had sharp pain in my side. I decided to throw caution to the wind and used Vipassana or insight meditation, which I had master years, decades earlier, to investigate what was going on in my body. Over many observations spanning several weeks, I found remarkable changes. I observed stem cells divide and the two daughter cells were markedly different. I observed cells move through the blood stream and through lymph vessels. Some were like the new looking cells but some were not even like the stem cells from which the new cells originated. The new type of cells had changed appearance in the blood stream as there seemed to have small particles stick on their surface but the other cells did not have anything stick to their surface.

    There was a sort of run and chase going on but I have to say it was hard to see clearly what was going on since there was too much going on, too many other cells. Then they finally stopped by clinging to the walls of the vessel and then squeezed through when the vessel wall cells seemed to become more loosely connected. And they  again looked like the cells I saw enter the vessel to begin with, i.e., without anything stuck on their outer membrane surface. There was another run and chase more easy to observe through the tissue of the bowel wall. And there was interaction with cells in the area where they stopped, just inside the inner lining of the bowel. And again I was able to observe remarkable transformations. There had to have been deliberate changes in genetic expression to get a whole variety of new cells start to appear and grow and divide. There is no way this can be chance mutations in the genome. And the changes in appearances and type of cells created reflected the changes I saw in the original site in the ovary.

    I let the lump in the bowel grow to the size of a golf ball and there seemed to be movement again into the blood stream. I had observed enough. I thought to call a halt to it. So I resolved the issues, which I had deliberately not addressed earlier and discharged the ideas that I had seen in Mind. I was also aware of the people, who were involved and presenting the ideas in Mind, so I used at the time a PC game (Diablo) to counter attack them in the Mind.

    I observed cells changes again but this time back to normal cells. And we are talking about stem cells that originated in the ovary convert to cells that were same as those in their new surrounding in the bowel. So again genetic changes that were deliberate. And the excess self destructed, which I recognized was apoptosis process and then the debris was cleared away by cells that formed big loops around the small particles. I realized these had to have been macrophages. I strongly believe that the cells that changed their genetic expression to become bowel tissue cells were cancer stem cells and the ones that self destructed may have been cancer cells that were not stem cells. I am not sure about that because I saw many different cancer cells divide into two different daughter cells. So maybe all the cancer cells are pluripotent or totipotent????

    So what I observed flew in the face of what I had been taught at university. And it flew in the face of what I have read in research papers on the net. Stem cells had deliberately, over the span of a few weeks to a month, changed their appearance dramatically as to form what is really not a mass of cells but a new type of organ. AND to convert back to normal cells. This means the mutations are deliberate changes, intelligent changes.

    There is no way I could believe they are mis-copied genes that formed out of control rogue cells any more. The evidence I saw makes that plainly false. BUT it also challenges evolution because it is NOT UNDIRECTED CHANGE. AND there are intelligent changes. The new cells function and interact with other cells in their environment, which are not cancer cells.

    through the wall

    I don’t know how life suddenly appeared in all its forms.

    I am not a Christian but I can to some extent accept even young Earth creationism, maybe bit more than 6,000 years IF the Universe is really a simulation. If the Earth is part of a hologram, then everything is manufacture. Maybe God thought to have a joke and plant a whole lot of fossils form in one a moment of hahaha! lol.

    More seriously though, if cells can transform themselves, without a blueprint that is visible, then the genome is a bit more than we imagine. It is like an alphabet from which we can create new words and a whole new language. A kid with leggo blocks can build anything and not just what their parent has shown them. BUT it takes intelligence. That is the hidden factor. How? I don’t fully understand it… yet, but I am working on it. However I am not fully on board with the Intelligent Design group either.

    I don’t think there is a common ancestor but rather a common algorithm of some sort that gives rise to a genome, which has great similarities right across all of life on Earth. But one way or the other intelligent changes are involved.

    #3789

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @kyrani – I hope you are better now.

    Your argument in favour of Intelligent Design, or Young Earth Creationism, is:  “I don’t know”, “I don’t fully understand it“, “one way or the other“.

    Also, you seem to agree that the present situation makes it look as if evolution is true: “Maybe God thought to have a joke and plant a whole lot of fossils“, “a genome, which has great similarities right across all of life on Earth”.

    You can see why people would be skeptical.

    #3790

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    it’s not a case of one-off interventions, or a magic wand that prevents disaster.  There’s no dispute that sickness, death and natural disaster happen to everyone.

    It’s also not exclusive, since it is given to everyone unearned.  It’s a regenerative power that people can use to make the most of situations.

    – the situation described is “God helps those who helps themselves”.  If you help yourself, by putting the right conditions in place, then you stand a better chance of thriving.

    It’s not such a stretch to say, “God helps those who help others”, or “God helps those who help each other”.  On the one hand, this can be seen to be the result of a biological regenerative force: putting the right conditions in place leads to thriving.  On the other hand, if you want to invoke God, it’s consistent with all this to say that God will throw you a helping hand if you really need it.  This would presumably take the form of an improbable and highly specific coincidence: something lands in your lap just at the right time, out of nowhere, that saves the day.

    It’s not a case of favour, earning something, or being rewarded:  just a helping hand for behaviour God is traditionally said to approve of: mercy, charity, cooperation.

    This is consistent with what we know about the structure of morality, except for the supernatural intervention element.

    #3791

    .
    Spectator

    @Reg I don’t know….I guess i was fooled. A lot of it made sense but then I’m not sure what to compare it to

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