What is God?

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This topic contains 130 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Dang Martin 4 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #3757

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @belle – which statement of Hitchens?

    #3758

    .
    Spectator

    @simon I was talking to Reg from his above Hitchens quote about how God stood by with his arms folded and watched us all die a horrible death and then decided to intervene 2k years ago. There are so many things wrong with that statement in my opinion anyway….

    #3759

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    It ignores “grace”

    #3760

    Belle, “The Pyramid Code” is so pseudoscientific that it has a “Woo” section all of its own. It is the opposite of Science. It is completely discredited within the Scientific community. It is so bad it is hardly worth debunking. I have suffered through some of it but it is that bad I even left it out of “This weeks’ Woo” section in Sunday School. It is even worst than those “Ghost Hunters” programs. I needed my healing crystals and scented sticks afterwards. It certainly does not disprove Hitchens words. It would have to have some modicum of intelligence in the first place to even begin to challenge him.

    #3761

    David Boots
    Participant

    Belle the problem with ‘grace’, as you define it, is this.

    If a supernatural force has given you some sort of favour then this supernatural force must have denied some other person that favour. I am sure you can think of many examples of apparently random events adversely affecting us that are capricious and arbitrary.

    Two people are in a car crash – one survives and the other does not. A mining cave collapses – some are spared while others die instantly.

    But this concept of supernatural favouritism explains nothing.

    And I take a great deal of comfort in understanding things. A remarkable number of events that would once have been not understood or misunderstood are now explainable.

    Perhaps Belle you could give us a personal example of ‘grace’ that has affected your life in order that we may understand this better.

     

     

    #3762

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @david Boots – it’s unearned favour, which implies that everyone gets it regardless of anything else.  It’s not there to save people from car crashes or cave collapses – it’s not a superpower.  But it is a force for growth, regeneration, and redemption.

    Naoki Higashida, in “Fall Down Seven Times, Get Up Eight”, says:

    A worthwhile existence lies in playing whatever cards life has dealt you as skilfully as you can.

    Without God’s grace, this would be pointless: we would effectively be dead things.

    #3763

    _Robert_
    Participant

    But it is a force for growth, regeneration, and redemption

    Simon, please explain how the grace of god applies to a child with brain cancer. Does the growth you speak of apply to a child’s tumor? What regeneration? If there is a god that has the power to intervene in the lives of people, then he is a monster. The ignorance of people who believe god is favoring them is astounding. Ten children died in the time it took you to read this paragraph, most in their praying parents arms. The cruel arrogance and exclusivity of the religious is forgotten in all of the praise  and glory speak.

    Every aspect of your life is associated with a probability that takes on the shape of a bell curve. Therefore if god intervenes he is doing so not based on prayer but on statistics. That makes him some sort of cruel accountant. No, the events of our lives occur as all natural events occur. And that’s a good thing too.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by  _Robert_.
    #3765

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @_robert_ – it’s not a case of one-off interventions, or a magic wand that prevents disaster.  There’s no dispute that sickness, death and natural disaster happen to everyone.

    It’s also not exclusive, since it is given to everyone unearned.  It’s a regenerative power that people can use to make the most of situations.  Presumably, the child with cancer and her family, all made the most of her life even though she had cancer.  Without some underlying power or force – if the little girl was just a plastic doll, with no regenerative power – this would have been a pointless exercise.

    #3766

    .
    Spectator

    @Reg lmfao you crack me up. Out of curiosity….how far did you get exactly?

    #3767

    .
    Spectator

    @david Boots

    My entire adoption story and how it has played out – especially in light of recent events. It is EERIE the way things have happened to the point that I refuse to believe it all to be somehow “random” or “chaotic” or whatever. No. There’s just TOO MANY THINGS that has God written all over my life.

    #3768

    _Robert_
    Participant

    @_robert_ – it’s not a case of one-off interventions, or a magic wand that prevents disaster. There’s no dispute that sickness, death and natural disaster happen to everyone. It’s also not exclusive, since it is given to everyone unearned. It’s a regenerative power that people can use to make the most of situations. Presumably, the child with cancer and her family, all made the most of her life even though she had cancer. Without some underlying power or force – if the little girl was just a plastic doll, with no regenerative power – this would have been a pointless exercise.

    The “underlying power” is simply the will to live, and is part of our makeup…No other power or force is required..we need to give ourselves credit where credit is due. We know prayers do nothing, we know a surgeons scalpel saves lives. The human race is plagued with magical thinkers. They band their heads against a wailing wall, they kill each other over a santa claus.

    #3771

    Kyrani Eade
    Participant

    Animals will adapt in accordance with their environment but that needs “a force to cause to guide it“. No. Evolution is unguided.

    The proposed theory of Evolution claims that change is unguided but they are trying to justify this on the grounds of adaptation. Adaptation is NOT unguided. When environmental conditions change, especially if they become unfavorable. The changes that an organism makes helps them survive in the new environmental conditions. However when those conditions go back to what they were before, eg drought ends and there is a good rainfall, then the organism will go back to what it was previously. I gave the example of the Galapagos finch beak changes.

    If the changes were unguided and only selected then there would not be a return to previous conditions but something new again.

    The evidence is not there for evolution. There is nothing but simple organisms for hundreds of millions of years and then there is sudden appearance of fully formed complex animals and plants. If the earth’s existence was the length of a day, then the Cambrian explosion took place at about 8pm and all in about 2 mins. We have no half-way animals and plants at all.. NONE! And since then we have seen some minor appearances of new body forms, new animals and plants.. bleeps on the time scale.

    To say that simple forms EVOLVED into complex forms is INTERPRETIVE and NOT scientific. The same interpretive that they said that 98% of the genome was junk when it was first analyzed, because they only found that 2% coded for proteins. Now its OOPS.. ah there are other elements like switches and regulatory elements and that is still only scratching the surface.

    We are not talking about simple genes becoming formed by slow changes over time, we are talking about the equivalent of high powered mathematical theories suddenly appearing over time by small incremental changes. It’s just not credible.

    Sorry but the evidence is not there. Not just not convincing.. NOT THERE!

    And I am not the only scientist that is rejecting evolutionary theory. Plenty other scientists are too.

    #3773

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @kyrani – so – Goddidit?

    #3774

    Kyrani Eade
    Participant
    I do not believe your God exists because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
    My opinion is based upon a lifetime of never seeing any evidence for any god. There is none. You have none. Kyrani Eade has none.

    what answers do you think God can tell you that natural world science cannot?

    ***********************

    You cannot use your own experience and rationality to say anything about whether another person has an awareness of God or not. So you can’t deduce that “there is none”, you can only say based on your own investigations, you believe that there is none.
    I could spend a lifetime looking for evidence for your subjective experience and I will find none. That does not mean that I can then go on and say “you have no subjective experience” and that “you are a robot”. Without evidence we can’t make a positive claim.
    All of natural world science can’t tell me anything. Science is a body of knowledge that we have accumulated by starting with axioms (none of which we can prove and some have been found to be wrong), then we make a hypothesis, do our observations/ experimentation and then draw conclusions based on the data. WE make the observations and WE do the analysis and WE use logic to draw our conclusions and mathematics to formulate theories based on the evidence.
    So now how can a lump of clay, evolve to become a living cell and then to fish and ape and human meat robot be able to reason and understand the Universe as to build a body of knowledge about the Universe and life on Earth? Even if you want to talk about the meat robot having been programmed by natural selection, it still can’t grasp ideas that are new and run with them. Intelligence has to come from somewhere. I say it comes from God. So God gives me the ability to find the answers.

    I will offer a definition of god if it makes sense and does not contradict itself. If we both agree that a god must exist outside of the natural world then how do you communicate with each other? What medium do you have to interpret what god is saying to you? Do you think a supernatural belief system leave people better equipped to deal with the problem of life in the natural world? I am fully supportive of you in your quest to find meaningful answers. If religious belief is giving you real support and a pathway to genuine answers, then I am behind you. It is not that I am self-sufficient but rather that I am incapable of believing in something I do not believe exists. If I was to map out a chart to self-sufficiency it would not involve the supernatural. I cannot give my mental assent to something that I do not believe is real. That is why I ask for evidence to study. If theists have none all I ask is for them to be honest and admit they take it on faith. I am incapable of believing that I will exist in 173.54 billion years time.

    ********************************************

    I agree, that in the most minimalist definition of God, God exists outside the natural world. Or maybe a better way to say it is that the natural world exists within the Mind of God.

    Communication with God or between God and conscious beings is not the same as any communication that we have in manifest physical forms. Communication is insightful, though awareness or consciousness (awareness with knowledge). But mostly it is a communication between ourselves and other conscious beings who are in spirit and who have reached perfection so that they are in Union with God. So for example I have had communication with my guru, who passed back in the late 1970s. She has helped me several times since 2000, which is a long time after she passed over. And I have had also communication with other spiritual allies.

    I think you are absolutely right that you can’t give your mental assent to anything that you cannot believe. But I do believe that there is God and that I am created in God’s likeness. That does not mean physically. God’s likeness means that I am a conscious being, who inhabits a body temporarily. So I don’t know if I will incarnate in 173.54 billion years from now, but I will exist as conscious being.

    Faith, at least for me and others that I know, is not without evidence. The evidence is an awareness that I am a non-material spiritual being, made of pure consciousness. And that gives me strength because I see myself as apart from the body. The body is a garment. This life is a passing parade. I am here, I do what I feel I need to do but I do not invest in this physical life.

    #3775

    Recently someone asked me what I thought of the book “The Secret” that her office colleagues were raving about. I suggested that she immediately look for a new job. It is just another one of those bullshit “self-harm” books. I had forgotten that until you began to extol the virtues of the Pyramid Code. It is 5 episodes of utter rubbish. It might be new to Netflix but it has been doing the rounds for a few years. It is beyond pseudoscience and compiled by someone with little or no understanding of the scientific method and even less of Egyptology. I am not sure what her Ph.D. is in but it is probably some new-age woo involving crystals. Read some IMDB reviews as I cannot muster any enthusiasm to even begin to debunk it again.

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