Sunday School

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

* (That Christian Apologist Gish Galloping Galoot I once told you about one time even went so far as to claim that the entire Enlightenment experiment and even Atheism were the product of Christianity! That takes some real mental gymnastics!)

I’ve got a book that says just that, and they make a good point.  The Western Church, in the medieval period (500 – 1500 AD), dismantled the tribe/clan system of family favouritism, and this led to people becoming more individualist and also promoted the idea of free will (so that people could be judged, presumably).  So, Christianity was a major factor in the success of the West.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

I think the writer is “tilting at windmills” and is arguing a point that does not need to be made. It could even be deemed a “strawman argument”. Her critique seems aimed more at an imagined “scientific arrogance” than at how science is genuinely practiced.

I think she’s right that science has had ideologically-driven blind spots, but it’s true that these get corrected over time, because people want objectivity more than anything.  It’s woke people, and Trump, who want to carry on ideologising science to make it more woke or Trumpian.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Simon,

I’ve got a book that says just that, and they make a good point. The Western Church, in the medieval period (500 – 1500 AD), dismantled the tribe/clan system of family favouritism, and this led to people becoming more individualist and also promoted the idea of free will (so that people could be judged, presumably). So, Christianity was a major factor in the success of the West.

Tribes and clans can be and were dismantled by travel and trade between different peoples. And neither Atheism nor Individualism fit very well with everyone bowing and braying (yes, that’s properly spelled because it’s what cattle do) to the Lord and reciting The Nicean Creed all at the same time. And free will isn’t compatible with an Omniscient being who knows the outcome of everything in advance.

Gotta be careful of believing everything that you read.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Christianity back in the day and Islam in any islamic nation today is the death of individuality and individual rights. The regulation of life is all encompassing and it swallows up all that is decent and desirable in life. Listen to any honest Muslims who have forsaken their cults and you will see i know of what i speak. And everything i have read about historical Christianity it is the same deal. Today best way to know how it was other than reading history is to examine fundamentalist Christianity.

Were those institutions never challenged power would never be ceded. Springing from a Christian past is in itself only a correlation and may bear little to zero on the changes that led to individual rights and individualism. The two are after all inextricably linked. Obviously the reformation, renaissance and enlightenment are major factors in that struggle towards freedom. Economic factors are also significant. And then there was an upheval in the 14th century after the plague. Changed social order markedly.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Reg,

Was Diogenes Woke?

Where does one get that?

Diogenes wouldn’t want the “Free Palestine” crowd pitching tents next to his Grecian Urn home and possibly using it as a public toilet in his absence.

And Diogenes would care whether his lantern put him out of the Net Zero club.

And Diogenes sure wouldn’t want anyone of any identity getting in the way of his Sunshine.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

All very well put! Attributing the progress we take for granted to religion and in particular Christianity and Islam is often a Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc Fallacy. Proximity in time is only one element of causation. David Hume listed a bunch of other elements of causation, but I’ll have to look that up.

You’re right also about the impact of Bubonic Plague. With fewer workers, it gave the hired help of royalty a position to demand more on pay and working conditions. (Though, I must say, being the richest man in a growing graveyard doesn’t sound like a great aspiration.)

Here, Christianity actually did play a role, though it’s nothing to brag about.

Christianity taught that life on Earth was a “veil of tears” and to do nothing to improve it. In the time when the Church prevailed and everyone prayed, water was untreated and stagnant and garbage was thrown out into streets instead of into landfills, and all that attracted Plague-carrying mosquitos and the rats who carried the mosquitos.

Also, the Christian Church helped spread the Bubonic Plague by executing cats as “spirit animals” of witches, which helped the Plague-carrying rats to propagate.

The Christian Church also distracted from finding the actual causes of the Plague by scapegoating Jews. The Church accused the Jews of poisoning water wells and followed up with pogroms.

And to think people still regard religion as necessary for a good society.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Was Diogenes Woke?

We agree. He was not! 🙂

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Reg,

I misspelled and couldn’t edit in time.

Diogenes wouldn’t care whether his lantern put him out of the Net Zero Club.

[StregaModerator]

Ha! Enco, the Church guided water ignorance had a strange but happy side effect. It turns out that the locals (in the uk) discovered that people who drunk wine, gin or beer did not get sick, whereas those drinking water were keeling over everywhere.  As a result, adults and children alike were swigging back the alcohol, giving gentle rise to the loose British alcohol laws that let children consume alcohol from the age of 5, I think, when in their homes.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I think Holy Water is meant to have some spirit in it? And 10 year old scotch is no longer for 10 years olds.

“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.…..W.C. Fields.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Tribes and clans can be and were dismantled by travel and trade between different peoples.

Travel and trade come into the story.  But in the first place, if family, clan and tribe ties are dissolved to a great extent, then people become individuals.  And religion provided the trust necessary for individuals to trade, outside of a collective family group.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Strega,

I am no Prohibitionist and make fun of them frequently, but having to drink alcohol as a necessity is not appealing, and minor children doing it is not a good thing either. And remember alcohol is brewed with water, so there shouldn’t be anything in water that could kill yeast culture.

Ancient peoples associating alcohol use with health more than water use is another faulty causal connection.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Simon,

Travel and trade come into the story. But in the first place, if family, clan and tribe ties are dissolved to a great extent, then people become individuals. And religion provided the trust necessary for individuals to trade, outside of a collective family group.

Perhaps initially this was the case in human history. But I can attest today that a Jesus Fish on a work van or business sign doesn’t necessarily equal trust or quality. Televangelists and Noah’s Ark theme parks do not help matters either.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Fellow Unbelievers,

This is not what I had in mind for The Singularity and I’m sure others would agree:

Can Xi and Putin Cheat Death Before the Rest of the World?
https://unherd.com/newsroom/can-xi-and-putin-cheat-death-before-the-rest-of-the-world/

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

But I can attest today that a Jesus Fish on a work van or business sign doesn’t necessarily equal trust or quality. Televangelists and Noah’s Ark theme parks do not help matters either.

I think the “trust” thing works both ways with religious people.  I’m always suspiciously on the look out for tell-tale hypocrisy.

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