proudathiest

Thanks Unseen.

Twas funneeee

Simon says: The subject has made an agreement with the experimenter. Agreements have normative force: instinctively we feel we should stick to them. This is the manipulation in my opinion.

I simply do not see it. Authority v. decency is how i see it. And that is how Milgram saw it. Here is what he wrote.

The legal and philosophic aspects of…[Read more]

I would have a diminished opinion of myself if i fell in line with the majority of Milgram subjects.

I have questioned things since i was a kid. Have questioned teachers. Have thought my way to unpopular opinions. Have stood up for people who were being abused by a groups at risk of personal harm. I have felt repulsed at the herd instinct…[Read more]

Context and manipulation in appearance of authority are symbiotic.

Autumn, I guess i am not sure what you are getting at. If the subjects felt less coerced they would not give the shocks? So if the experiment was intended to inform the subjects that choosing to shock was purely voluntary and that they could decline there would be fewer who…[Read more]

You would have to go far and wide simply soliciting passersby to find somebody to shock to death a stranger. Yes context matters. The point is that it is the appearance of AUTHORITY that causes the rank and file to do as they’re told, to go with the flow. That is fairly universal among us and throughout history. I agree it is not inherently good…[Read more]

Simon that just avoids the issue-begs the question.

Accountable to others for what? Presumably that is a position held by the majority and imposed through authority/custom and in no way speaks to right or wrong. My point is right and wrong can not be dependent on the contemporary mores. That simply renders right and wrong meaningless andn fact…[Read more]

Simon, feeling moral means obeying an authority figure?

Maybe so. Feelings are just feelings. Does it mean being moral. Social norms which fluctuate over the ages are tantamount to morality. If so morality is meaningless in terms of what is right and wrong.

Hypothetical. Lets conduct an experiment.

KNOCK SOME SENSE INTO THEM!

LADIES AND…[Read more]

I have wondered whether fetus Glen raised in a religious household/culture would have become religious Glen. Of course i answer that question in the negative. I may be a bit biased.

One can ask oneself same question in re Milgram. I can’t see myself complying. I have a history of questioning authority and no reason to believe i would have been…[Read more]

Simon, the conclusion is crap: In sum, though subjects in the Milgram paradigm violated their own reflective moral convictions, this may be because their conscience motives were hostage to the powerful moral appearances generated by the demands of the experimenter.

Characterizing obedience in inflicting shocks is anything but moral. By the same…[Read more]

One of the potential explanations for the behaviour is that it was very easy for participants to pass off moral responsibility.

Yes it is. That is a big part of submission to authority-we don’t need to or are not permitted to question those in authority whether their doings are benevolent or evil. I stand by what i said. Those subjects were led…[Read more]

Being easily led is a generalization and as with all/nearly all blanket there is nuance and there are exceptions.

For instance once the die is cast it is not easy at all to lead. Those who have been already manipulated/indoctrinated can be incredibly unbending. Social media, political and religious ideology all do a number on humans so that once…[Read more]

I suppose it depends on how you define easily led. As a practical matter en masse we are easily led.

Individually we know of the Millgram experiment (not sure i got name correct) and that experiment demonstrates conclusively/persuasively how the masses submit to authority even when it is against their nature or inclinations. Twain has a…[Read more]

Somebody once wrote the following: and while the Putins amongst us are potentially a special breed of fucked up, how do we account for the fact that people like him will move millions to kill over nothing on a semi-frequent basis?

Here is what i make of it. We as a species are mindless and easily led. Out out brief candle of civilization. Our…[Read more]

Unseen i assume you are suggesting violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act.

I agree with Autumn that agreeing to kill or reduce advertising is not illegal.