Absurd is the Word

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This topic contains 74 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  PopeBeanie 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 75 total)
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  • #41902

    Istvan
    Participant

    Misrepresenting other people’s views is a very bad habit best avoided.

    Tell me about it. I start a Hi-how-are-you thread and all of a sudden I’m being accused of not only being a closet theist but also an apologist for slavery and oppression.

    I think I’ve seen enough of your Crank Tank here. If you ever wonder why people don’t think atheists are ready for a seat at the grown-up table of society’s discourse, take a look in the mirror.

    #41903

    Unseen
    Participant

    @istvan

    I don’t see religion as a set of literal claims about the world that can be judged true or false the same way as claims about natural phenomena or history.

    Hmm. Have you ever convinced a religious person that their claims aren’t true (or false)?

    There is a certain rudeness in engaging in “Here’s what you really mean”-ism. It’s as if you’re saying “You’re simply not smart enough to know what you’re saying because you’re not saying what you think you are saying.”

    As for an interesting book, have you ever read or even heard about G. Spencer Brown’s The Laws of Form?

    It’s been described as “straddling the boundary between mathematics and philosophy.” Brown develops a whole system of mathematical logic around just one logical operator he calls “the distinction” and two “laws of transformation.” His system is taken quite seriously as a little googling will reveal. In fact, a claim is made that using his systems, the Riemann conjecture can be shown to be false, though to my knowledge no proof or disproof has gained widespread acceptance.

    As a teaser, here’s a video:

    This man thinks that not only does Brown’s system straddle the boundary between mathematics and philosophy but between those fields and religion as well.

    A LITTLE LATER it occurred to me that one point he makes refers to the “Can you get something from nothing?” question. He indicates that every distinction is an act of creation. A simple example is to take a blank plane and draw a circle. Something out of nothing.

    Taken further, consider acts of artistic creation. Write a novel or poem. Paint a painting or make a piece of jewelry. You can say they are all derivative in certain ways (you can’t write a poem without a language, for example), and yet we create novel things all the time. And it’s absurd to label them all as simply derivative. The new proves that something can come out of nothing.

    Just some thoughts but perhaps you know what I’m really saying.

     

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #41907

    Davis
    Moderator

    Tell me about it. I start a Hi-how-are-you thread and all of a sudden

    Yeah…you started with a Hi how are you and were greeted cordially, and then you made some dubious blanket statements on atheism later and were fairly challenged. You are a moderator of discussion boards, you should know that such replies are not unusual nor unreasonable.

    I’m being accused of not only being a closet theist but also an apologist for slavery and oppression.

    For the love of God please stop misrepresenting what we say. Any mature intellectual discourse avoids this at all cost. Jake said that some of what you said “sounded like the words of a theists”. That is not a claim that you are a closeted theists. Zheesh. Nor did anyone call you an apologist for oppression. If your response to fair critique is to overreact and turn it into a personal attack that no one actually made…then you are a fair distance from any adult table per intellectual discourse.

    I think I’ve seen enough of your Crank Tank here. If you ever wonder why people don’t think atheists are ready for a seat at the grown-up table of society’s discourse, take a look in the mirror.

    This is the equivalent of minor hissy fit where someone says a few things, gets pissy when challenged, does a fairly terrible job when responding (if at all responding) and then resorting to a mix of name calling and down talking. The adult table is where people respond to being challenged by addressing said challenges/questions, defends their statements and is capable of admitting they misspoke or even conceding a point. The first person who should hold up a mirror is the person who first mentions the mirror.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #41911

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I remember while I was still a catlick, I had a few beers with an atheist coworker. I was talking about Lent, and he looked at me and said something akin to “WTF is wrong with your brain?” Not the greatest argument but it made an impression, LOL.

    #41913

    Autumn
    Participant

    If you ever wonder why people don’t think atheists are ready for a seat at the grown-up table of society’s discourse, take a look in the mirror.

    On second thought, let’s not go to the grown-up table of society’s discourse. It is a silly place.

     

    #41914

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    note to mod: I hit edit instead of reply to Istvan’s message and I don’t have emails of posts, could someone restore his original message please?

    I’m 99% sure there’s no history kept of deleted or edited posts. There’s only post deletion, editing, and other adjustments possible en masse e.g. at the following link where I’m filtering on the Introductions forum. This is just FYI if you want to look behind the scenes.

    https://atheistzone.com/wp-admin/edit.php?s&post_status=all&post_type=reply&action=-1&m=0&bbp_forum_id=64&filter_action=Filter&paged=1&action2=-1

    There are other menus I think you have access to, starting with clicking on the WordPress menu item “Atheist Zone” in the upper left of your screen. (Just FYI, again.)

    Respond to, or please delete this message (you’re reading right now) when you’re done with it so we don’t distract other readers. You have to click the TRASH button before it lets you delete a post.

    (BTW I’ve accidentally hit EDIT instead of REPLY several times myself.)

    #41915

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @istvan, thanks for the lively debate.

    #41916

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    I think I’ve seen enough of your Crank Tank here. If you ever wonder why people don’t think atheists are ready for a seat at the grown-up table of society’s discourse, take a look in the mirror.

    Crank Tank rhymes nicely, I’ve never heard that one. I like that better than Basket of Deplorables. Not sure if I belong in either category, but can at least say that not all Atheists are as alike as many others might assume.

    That’s my generalization for the day.

    #41917

    Davis
    Moderator

    Not sure if I belong in either category, but can at least say that not all Atheists are as alike as many others might assume.

    Indeed. You must all know by now how much I deplore overgeneralisations about atheists. When most people say such things, they are for the most part referring to Western sceptical rational atheists, which are actually a minority of atheists. Considering the majority of people in some entire countries are atheists, generalising about them is like generalising about people who are left handed. Are left handed people allowed at the adult table too?

    #41918

    Autumn
    Participant

    Not sure if I belong in either category, but can at least say that not all Atheists are as alike as many others might assume.

    Are left handed people allowed at the adult table too?

    We actually have a very strong union. Late last year we took a collective vote on whether to lean into the whole ‘sinister’ thing or not, and the vote came back six to one that we would give it a shot. At first we thought this might preclude us from a seat at the adult table, but as it turned out, qualities such as responsibility, rationality, accountability, ethicality, empathy, and maturity were not requirements for inclusion. All the adult table faculty was looking for in new membership was that you complimented their hats, and you didn’t make them feel bad if they went and said something silly.

    #41919

    Davis
    Moderator

    We actually have a very strong union

    Get out of here! I am left-handed and I have never received an invite. They must have gotten my email address wrong or something. Or maybe this is just “elementary school team selection” all over again !!!

    #41920

    Autumn
    Participant

    We actually have a very strong union

    Get out of here! I am left-handed and I have never received an invite. They must have gotten my email address wrong or something. Or maybe this is just “elementary school team selection” all over again !!!

    Sorry to hear you’ve been… left out. Since the shift in management, the union’s been under direction that’s just not right.

    #41921

    When I was in junior school my friend was beaten by a Christian brother for blessing himself with his left hand. The Christian was almost gasping for breath with whatever sinister dread this sight brought upon him. The boy went home and about one hour later the boy’s father entered the classroom and asked to speak with the teacher outside. Don’t know what happened but my friend refused to bless himself for that teacher ever again and nothing was ever said to him about it. Poor lad grew up to be a math professor who become a millionaire through some patents he had before he was thirty.

    The bias against left handed dominance almost always arises from the religiously deluded. This is true in both Christianity and Islam. I think that China has even claimed that it hardly exists in Chinese people or is only 1% not 10%.

    There is even a specific word for it in Gaelic that the Christian brothers would use called “ciotóg” (kit-(v)ogue). As bad as they were this was often the least of their crimes against children.  Think it’s time to play some Hendrix.

    #41922

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Greetings, Istvan! Is your first name, by any chance, Zoltan?

    #41923

    Autumn
    Participant

    The words right (as in correct, and also moral), righteous, regal, rectory all stem from the same root as right (as in direction) as well as many other related terms/ derivations. It’s funny how embedded this shit gets.

    When I was a child, my mom couldn’t tell which hand was dominant for quite some time. I suspect people don’t realize how often right-handedness is subtly favoured in design, or how often we reinforce it with the way we teach or interact. Fortunately, for many activities it’s not that relevant. But there are some unexpected cases, for instance, writing in European languages tends to favour right-handedness marginally.

    There are also some cases where design skews a little more in favour of left-handedness though. Many of the stringed and brass instruments are designed so that the left hand handles the more dexterous* tasks. More sign that music is the devil, I guess.

    *Oh yeah, forgot that one for the list at the top of the post.

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