Analyze this, baby!

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This topic contains 90 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Autumn 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 91 total)
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  • #42151

    _Robert_
    Participant

    A young black dude made the mistake of walking down our semi-rural dirt road. Sheriff picked him up. Guy next door says he had a bead on him the whole time. I don’t have a clue what blacks experience. Racism isn’t all about the clan or nationalist rallies. It’s why black Americans have constructed their own dialect. It’s what happens when they shop at a store. Every day.

    #42156

    Autumn
    Participant

    Here is an NBA player who came out.

    Not a current player and that article just made me even more sad.

    There is at least one out NASCAR driver and another who just started racing again. If you ignore the fact that the latter of the two quit racing altogether because he didn’t think he could be out and race, and that coming back is a means of him proving to himself that gay men can race, that’s something.

    I wonder if the individualistic nature of the sport helps in that case. I mean, there is a team and there are sponsors, but at some point they either have to get behind you as a driver or not. If they do, you’re racing and the odds of being relegated to the bench in the short term are low. Long term… guess it will come down to profits.

    #42159

    Unseen
    Participant

    @davis and Autumn

    When people decry the “fact” (really?) that there are no LGBTQ athletes, they strangely aren’t referring to women’s sports. Of course, it’s hard to analyze women since I think openness to bisexuality is more common in women than men, or at least admitting it is harder for the men.

    But there are openly gay male athletes in all of the major sports now.

    Each of America’s big 5 sports currently has an out gay man in the pros. That’s never happened

    23 professional athletes who identify as LGBTQ

    and finally…

    Wikipedia: List of LGBT sportspeople

    #42160

    Unseen
    Participant

    A young black dude made the mistake of walking down our semi-rural dirt road. Sheriff picked him up. Guy next door says he had a bead on him the whole time. I don’t have a clue what blacks experience. Racism isn’t all about the clan or nationalist rallies. It’s why black Americans have constructed their own dialect. It’s what happens when they shop at a store. Every day.

    When in college, I held a part-time job at a Radio Shack store, and I was told that part of my job was to “keep an eye on any black people who come into the store” because “they steal stuff.” It was a part of my job that wasn’t in the job description. I was not very good at it.

    #42161

    Autumn
    Participant

    @davis and Autumn

    You are free to @whomever you like, granted, but what did I just say yesterday? [a courtesy reminder]

    #42162

    Unseen
    Participant

    By statistics there should be thousands. 0.05% or 0.2% = serious homophobia, bigotry, bullying and fear for their personal lives and career are keeping them in the closet. To say we are in a post-homophobic society is fucking madness.

    Where is the missing statistic of how many LGBTQ men actually want to be pro athletes? How common is that desire in their community? I’m pretty sure it might be smaller than within the general population, Davis.

    My roommate for about a year was a nice gay guy. He got up early every day to go to the gym, not in order to qualify for or even be better at a sport, but to build an attractive body and, naturally, to meet other gays. I think his attitude toward sports was pretty much “Why would I want to do that?” Now, that’s an anecdote that proves little if anything, I suppose, but my point is that you are upset based on a very possibly unwarranted assumption.

    #42163

    Davis
    Moderator

    When people decry the “fact” (really?) that there are no LGBTQ athletes

    I am disappointed with you Unseen because you usually pay attention and don’t misrepresent what people said. I never claimed there are no out players, I said there are none currently playing in the top tier leagues (and qualified that by not playing on the farm team or a player in waiting or something other than playing actual top-tier league games). Only one person on that list does. While it is great that lower tiers have out players and a few other sports (especially rugby, gymnastics and figure skating) have out players (which I have already mentioned), the top tier…the sports heroes…in some sports are either entirely unrepresented or have one player at best.

    This is nothing to celebrate. It would be like saying there is one single mayor in Americas top 500 cities that is a woman so…what are we complaining about? That is meaningful progress? No…that would be fucking depressing. The fact that players have come out and not inspired even more to come out is even more sad (note the NBA article where…despite predictions of an exodus…never came).

    I am through the roof joyful that SOME lower-tier players have come out (and again, please recognise that they are still entirely disproportionate to their estimated per-capita) and that a few insanely brave souls have tried in North America (none in top tier Western European football), this is absolutely peanuts. It is draining having to hear people laud this as something significant and a sign of the death bell of homophobia. It is a tiny dent. It is encouraging…not some seismic change. Yeay baby-steps. Boo for the overwhelming majority terrified to come out.

    As for women in Sports being represented…absolutely…that is fucking fantastic. The fact that we overlook this is a sign that women are entirely undervalued in Sports. Most of the sports heroes are men (which is awful). That is why other gay men hope that they can be represented at the top of sports heroes, because, you know, it helps normalise queerness. That is why I am sad that the names that people talk about in the leagues people celebrate (Messi, Ronaldo etc) don’t have a single queer compatriot. Young men worship them and amongst such role models have none in that same sphere who are gay. Teenagers who are bullied in high school in Europe (some to suicide) watch as their friends worship almost entirely straight men in football.

    One thing to be extremely thankful is that almost all of those highest role models ARE allies who openly and fully support diversity in football (and some make meaningful contributions). But a small sign of change…isn’t an excuse to start pretending that one is part of a post-homophobic society. Nowhere on Earth is remotely a post-homophobic society, no more than no society is remotely post-racist (one need only look at the number of calls LGBTQ+ crisis hotlines recieve every day in the most progressive places and the disproportionate number of LGBTQ+ suicides and attempts everywhere). I shouldn’t have to dance for joy and praise people for how less-bigoted they are than others while asking for change…no more than victims of sexual harassment should have to praise society for being less nasty than before while asking not to be groped, harassed, verbally abused or insulted. One need not accompany the other and one should not be congratulated for not doing what they shouldn’t be doing while being asked to do even less of what they shouldn’t be doing.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #42165

    Unseen
    Participant

    @davis and Autumn

    You are free to @whomever you like, granted, but what did I just say yesterday? [a courtesy reminder]

    Now, now. You promised.

    #42166

    Unseen
    Participant

    @ Davis

    Why would a team with a fiduciary responsibility to its owners to maximize profits not play the best player for a role on the field of play? Doesn’t make sense. Despite the systemic racism of America, none of them hold back from participation black players because they are black.

    I don’t get it. What’s the motive?

    Yes, women are undervalued in sports, but not due to overt anti-lesbian bias, or even latent anti-lesbian bias. Their sports are undervalued because, in general, they are less interesting to watch. Women’s basketball is a joke by comparison with NBA basketball. They could only be competitive if they bulked up to the size and weight and testosterone levels of the male players and played at a higher level, but then the NBA would probably hire them.

    The women’s sports which are interesting to watch feature much more feminine women than the NBA players, as I’ve mentioned. This is a fan preference and it holds about as much between male and female fans.

    Anyway, the idea that because, for example, .2% of the general population enjoys stamp collecting, something is wrong if .2% of gays don’t also enjoy stamp collecting is simply insane. We distinguish between categories of people because they are different in some relevant way, but it’s not outlandish to assume that other distinctions come along for the ride. If few gays make it to the top in sports, it may be that the ones who try aren’t that good and that the ones who might have made it have other interests.

    #42167

    Autumn
    Participant

    I shouldn’t have to dance for joy and praise people for how less-bigoted they are than others while asking for change…no more than victims of sexual harassment should have to praise society for being less nasty than before while asking not to be groped, harassed, verbally abused or insulted.

    I was thinking yesterday about the International Transgender Day of Visibility. I don’t really have much to say on these ‘day of….’ occasions. I get the point of the day and support it to that end, but it’s not for me, I suppose. That said, in my reflections, I considered a question I’ve been asked on several occasions: Is Canada a good place to be transgender? To that I say it is one of the best places on Earth to be transgender, and in that there is a sort of deep appreciation for my good fortune in having been born here. Yet once we dispense with the relativism, the answer is no, it’s not.

    And I think to some extent that’s just how it is.  Living your life with some balance with a appreciation for how things could have been worse (or how they have become better by some measure), the dignity to believe in better and not settle on being less than, and the ability to balance these perspectives without gaslighting yourself in the process, or slipping into some sort of doom spiral.

    Yet at the same time, it feels like people expect a sort of ambivalence from us every time we speak. Especially if we talk about the bad, we are—for reasons unknown—expected to acknowledge the good (or the un-worse) in the same breath lest we be viewed as whiny ingrates. And very quickly you cotton on to the fact that people just don’t want to hear about the bad and will do anything to deflect from thinking about things that might have to change. Another cheap ploy to dismiss the message without addressing it.

    #42168

    Davis
    Moderator

    If few gays make it to the top in sports, it may be that the ones who try aren’t that good and that the ones who might have made it have other interests.

    I am surprised you would say such ignorant shit as that. Very surprised. Replace “gay” with black and you’d see how insanely offensive and outrageous such a statement that would be. Post-homophobic society my fucking ass. Thanks for clearly demonstrating this. What the fucking fuck Unseen?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #42170

    Davis
    Moderator

    And very quickly you cotton on to the fact that people just don’t want to hear about the bad and will do anything to deflect from thinking about things that might have to change. Another cheap ploy to dismiss the message without addressing it.

    Since experiencing this all too much, I have tried REALLY hard to recognise that in myself. To not be hostile from outside voices about the places I live, love or am connected to. When people talk about the communities I am a part of (white, male, educated etc). It is actually extremely liberating to not have to feel like you need to defend criticism of communities you identify with, praise them, be defensive when confronted with facts or questions that challenge your image of groups you belong to. I basically feel sorry for people who, when a marginalised person explains why it is grueling and how things grind you down when stupid shit that shouldn’t happen happens and when things are the way they are when they shouldn’t be and instead of the human response:

    That sucks, shouldn’t be that way, I am all for this change…I hope it gets better, I will speak up if I get the chance

    You get:

    You shouldn’t paint as bleak of a picture (followed by a few examples that show things are infinitesimally not as bad), here are a few trivial examples of why you should be pleased with the progress made so far and thus I need not say more, contribute to change or even recognise how x things are.

    And you even become more aware of how more marginalised things can get. Despite the fact it shouldn’t play a role in how indifferent event progressive people are towards your troubles, I know trans people are exponentially more marginalised and often face a worse struggle and it is infuriating that even gay people play a role in that marginalisation. That same with African Americans living in the United States or truly villainised minorities in some countries (the Rohingya for example).

    But we live in a post-bigoted society and we should be pleased with the minor changes that have happened. tolerate people’s defensive reactions to pointing out the shit people face and ongoing marginalisation and shouldn’t ask for more than one single gay player in the NFL. Oh…and trans-people playing sports? Clear cut case that they shouldn’t compete…because it creates difficult and inconvenient bother.

     

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #42173

    Autumn
    Participant

    Definitely. When I was young, if one used the term ‘racism’ they likely meant something in the vein of cross-burning level racism. Or rather, a very obvious antipathy. But in a contemporary sense, ‘racism’ refers to more broadly systemic issues rather than individual hate. Now, I’ve known people who thought this semantic shift was as ploy to dilute the definition so as to be able to keep calling white people racist no matter what.

    In my experience, it’s near the opposite. Rather than being such a staunchly moralizing term, the deeper function is to recognize where harm is caused. Which is not to say no one uses it in the other sense, but the contemporary version is one where you can examine how racism may shape your views without necessarily fixating on how you can’t possibly be racist because you’re not a bad person.

    When it comes to First Nations, Inuit, and Métis, I definitely cringe at some of the things I thought and said when I was younger. It wasn’t meant to be hateful or mean, but it was conceited, ignorant, and callous. And it stemmed from basically two things: i) as a teenager especially, I didn’t want to admit how little I knew about certain things or how unimportant and useless my opinion was in certain affairs, and ii) I didn’t want to admit I lived and contributed to a Canada that did the sort of shit that it did (and does). Because I couldn’t face those two simple concepts, I was susceptible to flimsiest of anti-indigenous propaganda.

    It’s not like I’ve become magically enlightened at this point in my life, but once I stopped feeling the need to be so defensive and white knight Canada’s honour so hard, it became much easier to see shit wasn’t as naïvely simplistic as I thought. And if I actually cared about where I lived, I’d want to invite critique so that it might become better. And at some point you realize that’s just going to be a lifelong process, but so what if it is?

    I still have internalized transphobia and homophobia. I am sure I have views shaped by privilege, by ablism, racism, anti-indigeneity, (etc.). On balance, I am not those things, I believe, but neither am I above examining my views routinely and trying to hear and understand others. I am trying to stop being the sort of person who just glosses by what’s said looking for the most expedient way to counter or dismissing. Having been on the other side of that for some time now, it just grinds you right the fuck down over time.

    #42174

    Unseen
    Participant

    Posted twice somehow. Oops!

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #42175

    Unseen
    Participant

    If few gays make it to the top in sports, it may be that the ones who try aren’t that good and that the ones who might have made it have other interests.

    I am surprised you would say such ignorant shit as that. Very surprised. Replace “gay” with black and you’d see how insanely offensive and outrageous such a statement that would be. Post-homophobic society my fucking ass. Thanks for clearly demonstrating this. What the fucking fuck Unseen?

    I think the sports teams have one interest only: putting onto the field the best players or team of players. I’m pretty sure that if there was a 300 lb player who could run like the wind and blast past any defender in his way, but he was gay, the NFL teams would be falling all over themselves to sign him. What the fuckety fuck fuck fuck, Davis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😂

    Speaking of blacks, let me quote myself: Why would a team with a fiduciary responsibility to its owners to maximize profits not play the best player for a role on the field of play? Doesn’t make sense. Despite the systemic racism of America, none of them hold back from participation black players because they are black.

    In my 75 years on the planet, I’ve known more than a few gays and lived with one, and I must say that not many of them were terribly interested in sports, not even in watching them on TV, much less attending games or hoping to be on the field of play. Where are your throngs of gays yearning to be top-level pro athletes? While they may not be rare as hen’s teeth, it’ll take some convincing to make me believe that that’s a deep and abiding interest in the gay community to the same degree as in the straight community.

    You seem to think that the only difference between gays and straights is being gay and being straight, but can’t you conceive the possibility that for whatever reason (cultural, social, genetic) other things come along with the gay gene? One has the effeminate gay man, for example. Where are all the effeminate straight men. That’s just a very obvious example.

    Could you maybe take your woke blinders off and look around you? Or is it that anyone who doesn’t see things your way is automatically a bigot?

    You seem to think that unless the straight and gay demographics are exactly the same except for some being straight and some being gay, some grievous injustice has been perpetrated if all other demographics are the same, percentagewise. Just as many pro athletes, just as many race car drivers, just as many chess champions, stamp collectors, hairdressers, rock stars, and on and on and on.

    That’s absurd, and it’s sad that you can’t see it.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
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