Analyze this, baby!

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This topic contains 90 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Autumn 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 91 total)
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  • #42125

    Unseen
    Participant

    So I guess what I’m trying to say is that IF you are female going up against a male in a sport like that, “winning,” is possible if his technique is a LOT worse then yours or if you’re “practicing,” and the guy doesn’t go at 100%, but in physical combat there’s a steep hill to climb that women can only accomplish with professional level technique. If the female is a PROFESSIONAL she can take any guy on the street but going against him if they are both highly trained in a professional fight is a bad idea….that’s why they don’t do that, ever.

    I don’t understand why trans people don’t understand that and try to insist that the “transition” makes them on a level playing field, when it’s obvious that is not true. I understand wanting to be treated fairly etc but….I don’t know. You get my point right lol

    What is “fair” in this situation? Yes, nature doesn’t distribute physical attributes exactly the same to everyone, but natural men and women compete with the attributes Mom Nature gave them at birth. I was not tall or athletic enough to even consider being a good basketball player, much less a professional, for example.

    Now, I think the person who goes trans in order to compete in a sport is a unicorn, a rarity. For others, it just turns out that they excel at women’s sports.

    Here’s the thing: In our “woke” culture, we are asked to be hyper-conscious of the feelings of trans people. I’m not opposed to this consciousness. My question is about the natural-born girls and women who once were competitive? Are their feelings any less worthy?

    When you go trans, you can only get part of what you want. You get to live as a member of the other binary gender, but to ask people to say you’re not different from other women is asking too much You can’t do it and expect to be 100% “just the same” for the simple fact that you simply aren’t. Don’t ask people to engage in a game of pretend.

    #42128

    Autumn
    Participant

    I don’t understand why trans people don’t understand that and try to insist that the “transition” makes them on a level playing field, when it’s obvious that is not true. I understand wanting to be treated fairly etc but….I don’t know. You get my point right lol

    Trans people run a gamut with regard to competitive advantage. Testosterone suppression in line with competition requirements does go a long way, but the extent to which it nullifies advantage is uncertain and probably variable by both athlete and by sport. Furthermore, trans girls who underwent pubertal suppression at the onset of puberty (Tanner stage 2 is the actual current medical guideline) and followed through with cross-sex hrt are rather unlikely to have an unfair advantage.

    But legislation against transgender participation tends not to make such distinctions often proposing blanket bans. Because it’s not about fairness or competition. It’s about wedge issues and pearl clutching. This doesn’t require that much speculation. First, legislation often doesn’t appear fit-for-purpose. Second, in many jurisdictions, its just part of a broader program of policies and legislation which is either discriminatory, or in many cases now explicitly targets transgender people, in particular children and youth experiencing gender dysphoria or incongruence of gender.

    This thread took the direction of sports despite the fact that trans women haven’t really had that much impact on women’s sports to date. But this question on the definition of ‘woman’ isn’t about sports. Sports participaation is, tangentially one case that may rise to the level of the Supreme Court some day. But fundamentally, it’s much simpler. The question is about a false dichotomy between women’s rights and trans rights in an effort to use the former as a hammer to beat down the latter. This ranges from a variety of issues including children being able to receive adequate medical treatment, to prison assignment and more.

    #42130

    Unseen
    Participant

    Trans people run a gamut with regard to competitive advantage. Testosterone suppression in line with competition requirements does go a long way, but the extent to which it nullifies advantage is uncertain and probably variable by both athlete and by sport. Furthermore, trans girls who underwent pubertal suppression at the onset of puberty (Tanner stage 2 is the actual current medical guideline) and followed through with cross-sex hrt are rather unlikely to have an unfair advantage.

    Nobody but nobody is claiming that every trans is a potential champion athlete merely by being trans. It’s just that certain physical advantages and disadvantages come along with birth bodies and the fairness issue is whether someone who’s gone from male to female and largely taking those advantages and disadvantages with them should have an advantage over people who are satisfied with and comfortable in their gender.

    This question doesn’t involve or reveal hate or phobia. It’s a real ethical issue.

    #42131

    Autumn
    Participant

    What will it take for you to address what is actually said? I mean seriously? You have a real problem with this, and I cannot figure out why it is so damn hard for you. We’ve had this chat more than once, and until you can fix it, frankly, I’m done with you.

    #42134

    Unseen
    Participant

    This thread took the direction of sports despite the fact that trans women haven’t really had that much impact on women’s sports to date. But this question on the definition of ‘woman’ isn’t about sports. Sports participaation is, tangentially one case that may rise to the level of the Supreme Court some day. But fundamentally, it’s much simpler. The question is about a false dichotomy between women’s rights and trans rights in an effort to use the former as a hammer to beat down the latter. This ranges from a variety of issues including children being able to receive adequate medical treatment, to prison assignment and more.

    True that trans legislation so far seems to be mostly culture warfare. True also, trans women are not taking over women’s sports just yet. However, if a problem is on the horizon, is it not best to deal with it before it gets out of hand?

    And, to be clear, “trans” is a broadly-defined spectrum ranging from those who undergo a rigorous hormone treatment combined with surgery, voice and behavior coaching, and surgery, while for others it can be little more than a change in wardrobe combined with accepting a belief they have about their true psychological gender. Those are the honest ones. Are there those who might pose as women in order to fuck with us? Not often, I assume, because of the pervasive straight male phobia about seeming feminine. At the former end of the spectrum described above, there’s little chance of someone turning out to be a champion athlete in a woman’s sport. But at the other end, as a weightlifter or Olympic hammer thrower, those at the opposite end of the spectrum do potentially threaten to supplant at least some women competing as women with physically female bodies. Believing in your mind that you are a woman in a mans body, doesn’t change your body into a woman’s body.

    In pro sports, which are a business, the addition of trans athletes won’t make the sports more interesting, it will instead make them less popular. And that decision won’t be made by the owners, it will be made by the fans.

    You know, aside from the obvious difference in athleticism between the NBA and WNBA players, it’s a common rap that a lot of them don’t look female enough, so imagine how masculine-looking women being added to the team will affect that. No degree of woke-ism will change perceptions like this. This is not a problem in women’s volleyball or even soccer. One Portland women’s soccer player, Alex Morgan, an Olympic Gold Medal winner, was even the cover girl for a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. Speaking of which:

    Sports FANS tend to believe in binary genders, and they pay the team’s bills. So, it’s one thing to admit any trans who might want to play on the high school level, but starting in college and of course on the pro level, teams need to attract people into the stands, or die.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #42135

    Unseen
    Participant

    What will it take for you to address what is actually said? I mean seriously? You have a real problem with this, and I cannot figure out why it is so damn hard for you. We’ve had this chat more than once, and until you can fix it, frankly, I’m done with you.

    A welcome reprieve which I’ll hold you to.

    #42137

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Of all the issues to be concerned-namely the notion trans athletes have a physical advantage that inures to the detriment of “regular” people is illustrative of how fucked we are as a species.

    One can see this in terms of maintenance of the status quo and the reluctance to have the established order upended. “Jews and trans will not replace us for fuck’s sake!” God forbid the marginalized groups get over on the established order. Politically it is a faux issue pandering to the LCD. Imagine there are people up at night worried about trans athletes competing with an unfair advantage.

    From my knowing a few trans people i’ve heard jeremiads of ineffable pain caused not only by a trick of biology but by the rejection felt in terms of society and loved ones. One anecdote i shall describe is best viewed as a kafkaesque life. On another atheist site i came to know fairly well a young woman of some 18 years. I was struck by her brilliance. Raised in an ultra orthodox Christian family she was an outlier of sheer luminescence. Related how she had become an atheist by age 3, had written a book about medieval customs at age 12 on a PC. The book was lost inadvertently or should i say erased? I asked if she was distraught. No, she replied, i remember everything i wrote. Not only did she remember everything she wrote but she remembered every moment of her life. She was able to heal animals. She had a reputation by dint of successfully rehabilitating wild and domestic animals who had sustained injuries. She was a heck of an artist. Very very analytical and knowledgeable. She also criticized the scientists who were working on Otzi (i think was the name given)a fossilized human who was well preserved and found in the Alps. The scientists who were recreating Otzi’s appearance had screwed up she thought. She sent off a missive and they agreed and changed their approach.

    Ultimately she confessed to me how tortured she was and how her identification was male. She was frightened silly to tell her super asshole Christian parents. She felt trapped. I prevailed on her to do so reasoning that her mindset would never change until she revealed her secret to her parents. Well she did and but for a brief period in which her mom was understanding her life if anything got worse. Her parents became draconic and mind-bendingly brutal with their daughter. On thanksgiving they would not allow her to stay in the same room as the rest of the family. She showed me a suicide note in which she indicated that not ten minutes elapsed at any point that she did not consider killing herself. She stopped communicating with me and the few on the atheist site who were her allies and really felt deeply for her plight. (if the pronoun is wrong i am sorry) There was a misunderstanding and we all thought she had attempted suicide. Somebody called the police and she was mortified. She let me know she would never speak to me again. I reached out but to no avail.

    So in those few instances in which trans athletes have an unfair advantage my attitude is tough titty. One or the other is going to be unfairly handled. I would prefer to see people who are in groups that have been hosed upside down to be the beneficiaries.

    #42138

    Davis
    Moderator

    If there is a currently playing NHL, NBA or MLB player (not an understudy, not a prospect, not a farm team player, not a benched player) then please let me know. I am not aware of any. If there is one or two, then I stand corrected (please let me know who they are). As far as I know there is 1 currently in the NFL and this was Earth shattering and hasn’t led to a mass outing as expected.

    If there is one (a currently playing full player) in the British Premiere League, La Liga, Der Bundesliga, Serie A or League 1 (Europes 5 most prestigious premiere leagues) please let me know because I cannot find a single one.

    As Autumn said, there is little difference between there being 0 or there being 5. To even talk about there being 5 as though that is meaningful misses the point. By statistics there should be thousands. 0.05% or 0.2% = serious homophobia, bigotry, bullying and fear for their personal lives and career are keeping them in the closet. To say we are in a post-homophobic society is fucking madness.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #42139

    Davis
    Moderator

    During my two trips in Boston (equalling 6 days in total) I saw a street corner with South-Boston toughs intimidating nearly everyone who passed by including racial taunts, threats of violence and general hooligan menacing.

    While in Newark I saw a group of kids walking down the street knocking over a ladies shopping trolley and harassing a homeless man.

    In Brooklyn I had to start virtually running as a group of kids on the opposite side of the street were taunting me “hey white boy” (reverse racial harassment) “we’re going to get you” with laughing and taunting (while they smashed a rubbish can) that yeah, I ran on.

    These are all examples of hooliganism. I mean…you will find hooliganism everywhere you look…though to be honest, it was truly an absolute rarity in Spain. Fairly easy to spot in Belgium and the UK though (and I have heard Dublin has some neighbourhoods full of it…correct me if I am wrong Reg)

    #42141

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Three years of commuting into Boston for law school and never was apprehensive. But i wasn’t going through Southie. Boston had/has a reputation as a racist city. There have been professional basketball players who refused to play for the Celtics cuz of that rep. I know Bill Russell (all time great Black Boston Celtic) felt that racism personally. But he was playing at a time when there was real segregation. My hunch is Boston is an Average American city.

    #42142

    jakelafort
    Participant
    #42143

    Davis
    Moderator

    Here is an NBA player who came out.

    Not a current player and that article just made me even more sad.

    #42144

    Unseen
    Participant

    Three years of commuting into Boston for law school and never was apprehensive. But i wasn’t going through Southie. Boston had/has a reputation as a racist city. There have been professional basketball players who refused to play for the Celtics cuz of that rep. I know Bill Russell (all time great Black Boston Celtic) felt that racism personally. But he was playing at a time when there was real segregation. My hunch is Boston is an Average American city.

    I’ve lived in the United States for 75 years without encountering anything like Davis says he experienced. And not all of it in Portland. My first 26 years were in Cleveland, Ohio, where I went to one of the city’s toughest high schools, Collinwood HS.

    The only incident I remember where I felt my life was in danger was one day I was out walking with my 3 year old daughter in hand and a car full of teens pulled up next to me and yelled “Hey!” I looked and turned white as a sheet because I was staring down the barrel of a pistol. They laughed at me and drove off. The gun may very well have been a toy, not that it makes a difference.

    But that’s it.

    I guess some people may be hooligan magnets.

    #42145

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I lived in a blue-collar town in Massachusetts until i was 12. Never noticed any racial shit. Moved to an affluent town in Massachusetts and witnessed plenty of racism. I personally felt the anti-semitism. But the two towns for the regional high school i attended had no Blacks and only a few Asians living there. However Blacks were bussed in under a program known as Metco. The dozen or so Black kids were the brunt of such racism from elitist asshole White kids. At one point there was a fight between the toughest White kid and a Black kid. I was so happy the Black kid kicked the shit out of the White kid. Unless you had WASP elitist racist sentiments then it was not the shangri la a parent might have hoped…

    #42146

    Davis
    Moderator

    Only one of these was I directly affected. One I noticed from a bus. The other I noticed from the other side of the street. As I was travelling at my leisure and went to places most people don’t necessarily need to go to or want to go to, well: maybe I was just paying more attention and being more observant. I have noticed many times foreigners mentioning things they have observed to natives and natives heavily resisting statements that don’t gel with the image they have of their locality/nation (though a few countries are a little more open to or even admit their serious issues (not just the trivial ones)). I invite any of you to walk around rough neighbourhoods inner-cities in Detroit or Baltimore in the US or Charleroi, Marx Dormay or Newcastle in Europe. Insanely eye-opening.

    In any case, as hooliganism is ill defined (and measured differently or not even measured in different countries) it is hard to compare. Even if police did take statistics, it is hard to compare as police may be less likely to elevate a call to one of mischief/hooliganism or even respond to them in some jurisdictions. It is an extremely serious problem in many parts of the UK, Germany, Belgium, France and the Netherlands. Interestingly, it is hard to observe on the Iberian peninsula (though it may simply be that it is tucked away in the most worst of places). While I don’t believe it is crazy common in Canada, I have certainly observed it in some cities like Toronto and DEFINITELY in Vancouver. An extreme example is when Vancouver lost the NHL final game in the playoffs some years ago.

    Having said all of this, I have tried to investigate deeper into the topic and it seems that closeted athletes in top tier mens leagues in Europe and North America give different reasons for not coming out, in Europe it is mostly about fans/supporters (a certain breed of them) and in North America (especially with football and baseball) it is fear of teammates/locker-room and being drafted or not with some atheltes openly saying they would not want to have a gay teammate or have one in the locker room. Interestingly, sponsorship doesn’t play a factor….which is nice to know.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
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