Are there dangerous ideas?

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  • #34289
    Unseen
    Participant

    The bakery won the right to deny service in a Supreme Court ruling that didn’t really address what I am talking about.

    It didn’t win the right to deny service. It ruled that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission hadn’t remained religiously neutral.

    Requiring people to serve anyone who wants to do business is a principle that’s hard to apply rationally.

    That’s not what is required. What is required is not refusing business on the basis of discrimination against protected classes.

    For a while, I was in business doing marketing graphics and writing. I advertised, so in a sense I was working for the general public (in that field, you don’t need a walk-in storefront). Are you saying I had to take any job someone wanted me to do simply because I was available to the public?

    NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. What is being said is that you cannot refuse on the basis of discrimination against a protected class. I do not understand what is so difficult to understand about that distinction.

    Well, you seem to be saying that intent is everything, in which case the mistake the bakery made was articulating their intent to refuse service based on their religious beliefs regarding gays? So, they were just dumb. They should have just said, “Sorry. All booked up.”

    #34290
    Participant

    The bakery won the right to deny service in a Supreme Court ruling that didn’t really address what I am talking about.

    It didn’t win the right to deny service. It ruled that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission hadn’t remained religiously neutral.

    Requiring people to serve anyone who wants to do business is a principle that’s hard to apply rationally.

    That’s not what is required. What is required is not refusing business on the basis of discrimination against protected classes.

    For a while, I was in business doing marketing graphics and writing. I advertised, so in a sense I was working for the general public (in that field, you don’t need a walk-in storefront). Are you saying I had to take any job someone wanted me to do simply because I was available to the public?

    NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. What is being said is that you cannot refuse on the basis of discrimination against a protected class. I do not understand what is so difficult to understand about that distinction.

    Well, you seem to be saying that intent is everything, in which case the mistake the bakery made was articulating their intent to refuse service based on their religious beliefs regarding gays? So, they were just dumb. They should have just said, “Sorry. All booked up.”

    In terms of reducing their risk then making the cake was the best option followed by, as you suggested, refusing on neutral grounds. Although, in this case the bakery may not have been able to do that either as it may also violate their convictions (or maybe they find it too risky given their history). According to their website:

    Masterpiece Cakeshop is not currently accepting requests to create custom wedding cakes. Please check back in the future.

    also

    Masterpiece Cakeshop will happily create custom cakes for anyone. But like many cake artists, Jack cannot create all custom cakes. He cannot create custom cakes that express messages or celebrate events that conflict with his religious beliefs.

    #34292
    Davis
    Participant

    You cannot refuse to sell something you generically offer to the public to anyone in Spain unless they have been disruptive in your establishment or you have good reason that they are committing a crime in the process of requesting or using the product. You can refuse optional projects or “custom” work but you cannot refuse to sell a product because of their race/class/gender/sexuality. In the more extreme cases if you do not want to perform the service you can find a work around (it does happen) but you would be wise not to communicate this. But of course custom is a tricky issue. If it is of an inane nature (like fitting a suit or a requested colour of a cake) then refusing a client because of their race/class/gender/sexuality will get you in trouble. Most of this makes sense. A free lance publisher can refuse to research and produce marketing material for a client whose ideology doesn’t mesh with theirs. They cannot however refuse to photocopy booklets just because they don’t agree with it (unless it is illegal material). These laws are not controversial and the idea that a company wouldn’t prepare a wedding cake like they do for whoever else comes into the shop and sell it to whoever the fuck wants it (and if they truly must not put on top of it a man and man figures then outsource that part and the delivery to someone who will do it) disgusts people. The community licenses businesses and the community can refuse to license someone if they refuse to serve the community at large. If your religion interferes with serving the community at large then find another business where it doesn’t. No one is obliging you to make cakes. It seems like a no brainer to me. I feel sorry for people who live in a country where they are refused services because of their race/class/gender/sexuality/religion.

    #34293
    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    You forgot to call me a baby-eater. Remember, this is an Atheist forum. 😁

    It is real hard for me to get behind the concept of “hate crimes,” “hate speech,” and “protected classes” when Atheists, Agnostics, Freethinkers, Naturalists, Humanists, and other Unbelievers are considered “religious-haters” and “God-haters.” Also, we Unbelievers are not considered a “protected class” anywhere and probably never will be.

    Need I remind you, it is within the memory of people living today that The Beatles had to cancel their tours because of death threats over member John Lennon’s statement of fact: “We’re more popular than Jesus ”

    When John Lennon’s ‘More Popular Than Jesus’ Controversy Turned Ugly

    When John Lennon’s ‘More Popular Than Jesus’ Controversy Turned Ugly

    It’s also within the memory of people living today that The Roman Catholic Church, The Vatican–both a religious body and a temporal power with influence over other governments–had an Index of Prohibited Books.
    Index Liborum Prohibitorum–Wikipedia
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum

    In the pentultimate Islamic nation, Saudi Arabia, Atheists are deemed “Terrorists,”and “Extremists,” along with Feminists and Homosexuals:

    Atheists Are Terrorists By Definition (At Least in Saudi Arabia)

    Saudi Arabia: Categorizing Feminism, Atheism, and Homosexuality As Crimes Exposes The Kingdom’s Dangerous Intolerance
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/11/saudi-arabia-categorizing-feminism-atheism-homosexuality-as-crimes-exposes-the-kingdoms-dangerous-intolerance/

    Unbelievers in the birthplace of humanity are subject to everything from threats to imprisonment, torture, and death from all religious sides, Animist, Christian, and Islamists:

    Humanist Voices: Humanist Voices: Atheist Experiences in Religious Africa
    https://medium.com/humanist-voices/atheist-experiences-in-religious-africa-e4faa4a54c64

    And in Bangladesh, the few Unbelievers are at risk of being either chased out or completely exterminated for blogging their thoughts:

    Islamists Murder Freethinkers and Atheists in Bangladesh
    https://www.atheistrepublic.com/news/islamists-murder-freethinkers-atheists-bangladesh

    Sorry, I’ll just have to pass on governments and their proxies and cronies policing thoughts and ideas. I can also do without their “protected class” status if this is what “protection” means.

    Limited, Secular Government and Equal rights and Justice For The Win!

    #34294
    Davis
    Participant

    Criticising a religion is not a hate crime. Dehumanising a group of people because they believe in one is. So it’s really one thing to vehemently show your distain for a religion, it is another to attack someone because they believe so egregiously that they fear for their safety or are made to be second class citizens.

    Consider the difference between:

    1. Bhuddism is such a fucking stupid religion I think people who believe in it are stupid. I look forward to the day when people stop believing in that stupid shit.

    2. Fuck off you Bhuddist scum you should kill yourself and I will piss on your grave and those of your Bhuddist family when they die. Go back to Bhuddist land…you don’t belong here.

    __________

    Hate crimes would apply to the first…not the latter. No set of ideas are free from the most vigorous criticism. Just think how in France (which has hate speech laws) the whole country comes to defend the Muhammed cartoons (which I whole heatedly agree should be allowed). Spray painting “get the fuck out of our neighbourhood dirty muslims” will, however, get you in trouble and so it should. You are worrying about a non-issue. The ideas and the fact that people believe them, are not free from even vicious criticism or harsh lampooning. Just don’t dehumanise the people. It’s not brain science.

    #34297
    Davis
    Participant

    Criticising a religion is not a hate crime. Dehumanising a group of people because they believe in one is. So it’s really one thing to vehemently show your distain for a religion, it is another to attack someone because they believe so egregiously that they fear for their safety or are made to be second class citizens.

    Consider the difference between:

    1. Bhuddism is such a fucking stupid religion I think people who believe in it are stupid. I look forward to the day when people stop believing in that stupid shit.

    2. Fuck off you Bhuddist scum you should kill yourself and I will piss on your grave and those of your Bhuddist family when they die. Go back to Bhuddist land…you don’t belong here.

    __________

    Hate crimes would apply not to the first…but the latter. No set of ideas are free from the most vigorous criticism. Just think how in France (which has hate speech laws) the whole country comes to defend the Muhammed cartoons (which I whole heatedly agree should be allowed). Spray painting “get the fuck out of our neighbourhood dirty muslims” will, however, get you in trouble and so it should. You are worrying about a non-issue. The ideas and the fact that people believe them, are not free from even vicious criticism or harsh lampooning. Just don’t dehumanise the people. It’s not brain science.

    #34298
    Unseen
    Participant

    You cannot refuse to sell something you generically offer to the public to anyone in Spain unless they have been disruptive in your establishment or you have good reason that they are committing a crime in the process of requesting or using the product. You can refuse optional projects or “custom” work but you cannot refuse to sell a product because of their race/class/gender/sexuality. In the more extreme cases if you do not want to perform the service you can find a work around (it does happen) but you would be wise not to communicate this.

    That’s kind of a toothless law, then. Just discriminate but don’t make a scene.

    But of course custom is a tricky issue. If it is of an inane nature (like fitting a suit or a requested colour of a cake) then refusing a client because of their race/class/gender/sexuality will get you in trouble. Most of this makes sense. A free lance publisher can refuse to research and produce marketing material for a client whose ideology doesn’t mesh with theirs. They cannot however refuse to photocopy booklets just because they don’t agree with it (unless it is illegal material).

    It’s only a “tricky issue” for governments that decide to involve themselves in cases that have rather obvious nongovernmental solutions. If gays simply kept a list of gay-unfriendly businesses, available to gays and gay-sympathizers alike, they could simply boycott them.

    BTW, in the U.S. we have businesses with owners who oppose gay marriage. They will take gay cash but use it to undermine gay causes. Many Americans would name Chik-fil-A because they’ve been in the news with their policy. They might expect The Salvation Army and The Boy Scouts to also be on the list, Few would realize that the list also includes the likes of Urban Outfitters, Exxon, Purina, and the Cracker Barrel restaurant chain. (source)

    These laws are not controversial…

    That’s kind of a backdoor argumenum ad populum, though, isn’t it?

    The community licenses businesses and the community can refuse to license someone if they refuse to serve the community at large. If your religion interferes with serving the community at large then find another business where it doesn’t. No one is obliging you to make cakes. It seems like a no brainer to me. I feel sorry for people who live in a country where they are refused services because of their race/class/gender/sexuality/religion.

    Of course, by handing it over to the community, you’re assuming that the community is wise and unprejudiced itself.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Unseen.
    #34302
    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    Spray-painting anything on the private property of any other unwilling person is vandalism and is already a crime and should be.  Whether the spray-painted item is a heart or a message of hate makes no difference.

    Again, Occam’s Razor comes into play: Never multiply concepts more than necessary.  The simplest solution is the best.

    #34303
    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    Oh, and if anyone tells me to leave my home country for any reason, I’d ask for their Immigration or Border Patrol badge.  If they couldn’t present one, I’d tell them to go screw.

    #34304
    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    The idea of viruses of the mind keeps coming up here.

    Very well, to extend that analogy, the way a single human body fights viruses is via antibodies, and the way to prime the antibodies is through limited, controlled exposure to the virus (i.e. either variolation or vaccination.)  The way a group of human bodies fights the spread of viruses is through herd immunity.  In herd immunity, the greater the number of people wbo are innoculated against the virus, the lesser the spread and the lesser the ill effects of infection when it does occur.

    If “hate speech” is banned, individuals and groups and societies have no way to learn what hate really means and are in no position to fight it when it happens.  In other words, with a ban on “hate speech,” they have no herd immunity.

    #34305
    jakelafort
    Participant

    Encog. Do you hear yourself? Have you thought about what you have written.

    It would be very funny if you tell us you have been fucking around this whole time doing a social science experiment or some shit.

    #34308
    Davis
    Participant

    If gays simply kept a list of gay-unfriendly businesses, available to gays and gay-sympathizers alike, they could simply boycott them.

    Easy to say when you’ve never faced discrimination once in your life…nor faced the indignity of public hatred for a quality you were born with and cannot change. I like how the marginalised groups always have to make concessions and tolerate hate. Not so easy when the only quality place in town that offers a service refuses to sell to you hey? How about getting over your bigotry and not refusing to serve faggots and ni***rs because they are gay or black or say finding another line of work where your biggotry or so called “values” force you to harm citizens for being they way they were born?

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Davis.
    #34309
    Davis
    Participant

    Whether the spray-painted item is a heart or a message of hate makes no difference.

    Well it actually does make a difference to the person who is now afraid to leave their house and is humiliated by hatred in their community. How about instead of very badly citing Occam’s razor (do visit the wikipedia page on the topic to familiarise yourself with it again) you consider that an egregious act can have more than just one consequence and that the victim may pay more than just one price for it.

    #34311
    Davis
    Participant

    That’s kind of a backdoor argumenum ad populum, though, isn’t it?

    No. It shows that an enlightened culture that takes protecting marginalised people seriously can face a difficult issue and solve it without resorting to fear of slippery slopes or the hassle and tiny inconvenience of slightly adjusting their way of doing things…without kicking up a ridiculous fuss over something that should be a no brainer.

    #34312
    jakelafort
    Participant

    I am reminded of debates i had 30 years ago concerning the legalization of marijuana. The opposition was so faithfully married to their war on drugs that it was just a waste of time debating.

Viewing 15 posts - 211 through 225 (of 370 total)
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