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This topic contains 74 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  Jason 2 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #3178

    Jason
    Participant

    Is there a way I can hide my name? I thought I chose to make my name only visible to me, yet everyone sees it?

    #3179

    Davis
    Participant

    What does property law have to do with universal health care? Every western country has had problems with one social programming or another and yet they are still able to implement universal health care. You have an extremely skewed and biased view of it with your constant referl and use of “liberal” as a pejorative. Europe is full of right wing leaders quite conservative and etc they maintain health care systems of high quality and full access. Universal health care is not a liberal or conservative concept…it is an overwealmingly logical and obvious thing to create and implement. The only differences with liberals and conservatives are the question of allowing some private services in parallel with the universal system and whether to cover dental care and non-selective surgeries. Apart from these details…universal health care is virtually an untouchable right

    What Obama pulled off was pathetic because both republicans and some democrats fought Obama kicking and screaming from the beginning to the very end and the meager system he did get through was a bastardised and extremely limited program. Obama care is NOT universal health care. It is health insurance subsidies…and this kind of half measure cannot possibly be successful without a continued nationalisation of health services. Yet the American narrative right now is so full of “universal health care will bring us 90% taxes and a communist government and free plastic surgery for teenage unemployed moms and 15 year waiting lists and a thousand other boogeymen. Of course…all you have to do is live in Canada or Denmark or Japan or Spain for a few months and see how much bullshit this right wing narrative is. Universal health care can only be pulled off when people are committed to it…in the mean time Obama tried to create a stepping stone…a crack in this bizarre hysterical fear of proper healthcare. It has insured millions of people which is an unqualified good thing…and it has screwed up some people’s own insurance (which is not a good thing). This sad compromise is the best Obama could do and it’s nothing short of a miracle that Obama even passed that through Congress.

    #3180

    Jason
    Participant

    I use the term liberal as I do, because their end goal here based on their actions is to destroy the middle class. The pump up the welfare people that don’t/won’t work, yet they want to make the ones that work for too little pay, pay for everything. If I can’t afford healthcare, why should I have to contribute so someone that provides no effort has free healthcare. Free for all or free for none is what I am happy with. Not free for the non-working and too high a price for me to have. It can’t be both ways.

    #3182

    Davis
    Participant

    And yet…the evidence shows that when limited social programs and health care systems are employed in every single developed-democracy in the world except America (dozens of them)…the system doesn’t remotely resemble your cliche strawman description of it. I was born in and have lived in five countries with social-democracy (Germany, Canada, Belgium, UK, Spain) and I have never encountered anything like your description. I am middle class and if anything the middle classes have grown and become more affluent and no I am not taxed to death and yes, the unemployment rates are usually low and no the middle class isn’t being attacked nor has it, over the last 50 years, disappeared.

    The disconnect between the way it works and the disaster that many Americans believe will happen if implemented is astonishing. It is pretty much on the same scale as committed communists. Despite the existence of dozens of communist experiments in the past in many different shapes and sizes they all ended up in catastrophy and yet there are still people convinced it will work if it could just be done in the right way. There is simply no difference between deluded communists and those terrified of social-democracy. The evidence says one thing yet the predictions insist on the opposite.

    Meanwhile millions of Americans are pointlessly suffering from poverty and unattended medical problems and homelessness and hunger and desperation…for no defensible reason. Just walk around Detroit, Baltimore or Buffalo and you’ll see the result of “it’s not my problem”.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by  Davis.
    #3184

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Is there a way I can hide my name? I thought I chose to make my name only visible to me, yet everyone sees it?

    I see what appears to be a possible conflict between users or identities, but no way for me to edit any of it. Please friend me if you want further, private info on this issue.

    #3186

    _Robert_
    Participant

    A couple of other good things about the US

    (1) We saved the free world a few times

    (2) Giving https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index

    Americans have a huge mistrust of government in general. Truly a nation of capitalists. “Don’t tread on me” should have been our national flag.

     

    #3187

    Davis
    Participant

    1. We saved the world a couple of times.

    Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Volunteers from Ireland, contingents from India and the Carribean etc entered the war to help Europe from nearly the beginning. America entered the war quite late, letting its European allies and trading partners fend for themselves while countless millions died, then at the last minute the US enters, helps the war end switly and save lives and then claims they “saved the world” despite the Russians sacrificing exponentially more soldiers and despite Allied countries sacraficing their cities bombed to rubble in order to end the Axis (which would have been terrible for everyone including the US). What America did in both Wars was admirable (though that whole atom bomb dropped a second time was grotesque) and it is unlikely the war would have been won (or at least not drag on forever) without the help of the US (as well as Australia, Canada, South American countries and even African contingents) so a million thanks are owed to America (and Canada amongst many others) for their sacrafice of young men and enormous spenditure of money and resources. But to say America “saved the world” through its just in time entry is hyperbole. That being said, the Marshal Plan would certainly approach “saving the world” as without that kind of extremely generous investment Europe would have stagnated (and the US would lose its trading partners) and taken forever to recover. Their investments in Japan and Phillippines certainly helped Japan redevelop and bring prosperity and stability to the region!

    American films and literature helped save the world to some extent as well, as the ideas transmitted throughout the world, many of which included prosperity through peace, democratic stability and the opportunities of capitalism as well as equality amongst the sexes without a doubt helped speed up social change in many countries (and likely helped avoid some domestic conflict and international wars).

    2. Giving:

    The US donates more money and resources to the developing world than any other country. Having said that, they give less aid “per capita” is below average with Nordic countries and many European countries giving a notably larger chunk of their GDP to foreign aid.

    However, the aid that private Americans give domestically and internationally is quite high. The domestic charity donations can be explained by a notable lack of government funded social services but the international aid cannot. Americans indeed are quite generous when it comes to private individuals donating money to international projects.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by  Davis.
    #3189

    Noel
    Participant

    @jason: In the end it all boils down to “the big Elephant in the room”; race. The thought of some woman, mostly black and Latina, with four or five children getting a free ride while we have to pay is enraging isn’t it? Yeah, no it’s not enraging to me. We’re crying about social programs that take less than 5% ( Chart ) of the nations capital while we spend more on defense than Russia and China combined.

    As holier than thou Christian and “Oh suffer the little children” that we say we are, and by we I mean all of us ‘Mericans ” we give less than two buffalo chips about the poorest and most needy among us.  Do I sound like a screaming liberal to you? Probably! I’m a card carrying member.  Liberal as the day is long. You use the word liberal like it’s a cus word; doesn’t ruffle my feathers.

    My 27 year old son gave up his gym membership and changed his standard of living in order to afford healthcare in Virginia. Sometimes we have to make sacrifices.

    #3190

    Noel
    Participant

    I was talking about agriculture and food stamps. Medicare, medicad, and health and welfare are about 28%, i think. Still less than what we spend on the military.

    #3194

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Davis, when you say the US entered the war at the last minute we simply had no means to enter Europe’s war in 1940, with an insignificant army and no real war machinery. Talk about gearing up! The US war production was truly the arsenal of democracy, even supplying the Russians and Chinese.

    And then there was “our war”, the one in the Pacific. Air/Naval battles involving thousands of vessels and aircraft that dwarf any action the Atlantic/Med saw. The SS Nazis had nothing on a company of Japanese soldiers, who to a man would not surrender and fought to the death.

    The Russians signed a non aggression pact with the Nazis, sold out Poland and the Balkans and did nothing until they had to defend their homeland. And then they were mostly cannon fodder. Hard to overstate their individual sacrifices, but they didn’t leave. The US rebuilt and left. Don’t compare the Russians to the US. They are not worthy.

    #3195

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    Robert, regarding reasons for America’s late entry into WW2:

    Jonathan Jordan’s 2015 book “American Warlords”, about Franklin Roosevelt’s high command, describes in detail the reasons you gave in your post and added America’s isolationism and the neutrality laws.

     

    #3198

    Jason
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with race. My brother in law (white) knocked up a “white chick” about 3 years ago now. She has been dragging him through court for the life of their kid and plans to continue. She has stated that she wants to ride the welfare train, has no interest in working (ever), and basically wants the tax payers to pay her bills. We should if anything have a base wage that you get just for being. Want a life beyond that use it to start a business or get a job. I don’t give a crap about race. I can’t stand the lazy. I would like to work hard and do my time so at some point I can take it easy in retirement. Unfortunately the people that want to retire after either graduating high school or dropping out is not only growing, but are trying to make retirement for the workers impossible. The hand outs need to stop.

    #3199

    Jason
    Participant

    I also forgot. Your son changed his standard of living you say? Other than giving up a gym membership, what else changed? Is he married? Does he live with you or does he pay a mortgage or rent? I didn’t have a gym membership to give up. A gym membership might cost you a little over $1000 per year. If it was only a difference of $1000, I might have been able to find the money. The difference was over $7000 a year. I could not just pull that out of my ass. I am married and at the time had a mortgage to pay. What was I supposed to do, stop paying my mortgage?

    #3200

    Noel
    Participant

    @jason: Yeah that was awfully insensitive of me to insinuate that. I apologize if I offended you. Sometimes my brain stops moving while my fingers keep typing. I’m sorry.

    My son, he rents, has no kids, sold his car cause he couldn’t afford the insurance on the new one he bought before he bought health insurance. He payed off his debt and bought into the marketplace, got a Silver Plan for about $380 a month. Yes, he works two jobs sometimes three but he owes no one anything. He’s a good kid. Tell’s me he’s happy with his healthcare. He lives paycheck to paycheck and hopes for Republicans to pass single payer. Hey, a boy can wish can’t he?

    Obamacare sucks. At least it does for middle class and upper middlclass who have to pay $380 a month per person for health care. But what’s being offered now, in the Senate and the House,  will most likely relegate a lot of us to using the emergency room as Primary Care. And then we’ll be back to living off the teat of the Federal Government. Which is something most conservatives frown upon.

    I hope you get to figure it all out and hope we can work with something more forgiving than we have now or will get in a week or so. Rumor central has it that there are going to be a lot more of us without health insurance.  How can that be acceptable to the powers that be? How can that be acceptable to the people that put them their?

    #3201

    Jason
    Participant

    $380 per month? I am guessing he is single, at least on paper. Obamacare wanted $600 per month for just my wife because we are married and my wife is in the age bracket that might shockingly end up pregnant.<i> Except for once in my life, I have never had a new car. There is nowhere I can cut my budget to free up that kind of money. What kind of life is working 3 full time jobs? </i>

    As far as the new plan. I understand where you are coming from. That being said, I have an equal problem with the ocare plan. It hit my wife and I with an unacceptable penalty. It helped you and I guess maybe your son, but I don’t think so. If a candidate promises single payer, I will more than likely vote for them. The problem we have is that it must be good for everyone. Attempting to make me have to kill myself working at multiple full time jobs is not the way. I can’t vote for that. The other problem is that you have rumors spread by a media that hates Trump. It probably won’t be as bad as they say, just as ocare was not nearly as good as was promised. At least with the republicans we have not heard the phrase uttered “We have to vote it in so we can know what’s in it.”. It is being scrutinized by the left and the right and the bad stuff is and will be being fought. The republicans won’t be able to just pass anything they want like the crats did.

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