Is something wrong with sports? Or is something wrong with transgenders?

Homepage Forums Small Talk Is something wrong with sports? Or is something wrong with transgenders?

This topic contains 36 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 3 weeks, 4 days ago.

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  • #38109

    Autumn
    Participant

     

    It’s all about what’s fair. How does allowing a male who feels like a female or has undergone sex reassignment surgery materially benefit the sport?

    The sport isn’t materially benefited by anything. Benefit is undefined here. Sport is recognized as benefiting people, and there is a question of which benefits should most be emphasized. There is no generic equation.

    ‘Fairness’ is one aspect of sport that people like to emphasize, but sports aren’t typically fair until you add on a shit ton of qualifiers. If it’s ‘all about what’s fair’ then it’s a pretty doomed enterprise.

    Inclusivity is another emphasized aspect.

    Entertainment is another.

    Revenues is another.

    Physical fitness is another.

    Competitiveness is another.

    There are more. Any one of them is a complex discussion in itself.

    #38110

    Autumn
    Participant

    What is that you say? Bouldering/climbing? That is my luuuuuuv. Stared death right in the face from a mountain side. What a high to have survived. Best one yet. Had cuts all over my body. Didn’t feel a fuckin thing except euphoria when i scampered clear at the summit.

    Once upon a time, long long ago, it was pretty much my life. Back then I was fairly strong, too. I could to one-armed pull-ups. I could do front levers. At times I had crazy endurance (and at others, almost none). My mom and my brother both got into climbing at the same time and we’ve been all over North America (and some of Europe) on climbing trips.

    Unfortunately, depression, anxiety and life sort of put a dent in doing any sort of physical activity for a time. I became sedentary. Put on a lot of weight. There is an appreciable difference in strength and recovery after transition as well, though at thirty-eight, age is becoming a variable. The funny thing is people always pointed to my height (over 6′) as an advantage in climbing. Situationally, it can be, but typically once you start pushing the harder grades, it’s a mechanical disadvantage. The balancing factor was strength that let me power through.

    A couple of weeks ago my mother and I went out to a local crag I’ve been meaning to check out. I live in what is considered ‘the country’ for lower mainland BC, so I wasn’t expecting anything super developed. Boy was I wrong. The people developing the crag clearly put a lot of love into it. At some point this year, I’ll start back up climbing. My hardest days of climbing are probably behind me even though I never reached my full potential, but I’m still young enough I can probably get close to where my former peak was. They say if the body has been conditioned for something once, it’s much easer to get back.

    #38111

    Unseen
    Participant

    The video plays even if the “thumbnail” image doesn’t display properly.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    #38113

    Unseen
    Participant

    ‘Fairness’ is one aspect of sport that people like to emphasize, but sports aren’t typically fair until you add on a shit ton of qualifiers. If it’s ‘all about what’s fair’ then it’s a pretty doomed enterprise.

    Sure there are many aspects of sports as there are many aspects of just about everything you can name or speak of.

    However, the very essence of sports is summarized in the word “sportsmanship.” Sportsmanship is best exemplified when one person gives up an advantage to help someone else. Sportsmanship is not exemplified by using an advantage that is artificial. Boosting one’s performance by “doping” is unsportsmanlike. Bringing a sham gender onto the field similarly is unsportsmanlike.

    If someone feels better living as a woman, whether they’ve gone all the way with reassignment or not is fine. More power to them. However, as Germaine Greer pointed out in the previous video, that doesn’t make them actual females, does it?

    Anyway, if they want to participate in sports, I stand by my solution: A third category of “other” where transgenders can compete against other transgenders, bionic humans hybrids, maybe even robots and whatever else that’s not really naturally male or female that comes down the pike.

    #38114

    Autumn
    Participant

    ‘Fairness’ is one aspect of sport that people like to emphasize, but sports aren’t typically fair until you add on a shit ton of qualifiers. If it’s ‘all about what’s fair’ then it’s a pretty doomed enterprise.

    Sure there are many aspects of sports as there are many aspects of just about everything you can name or speak of. However, the very essence of sports is summarized in the word “sportsmanship.” Sportsmanship is best exemplified when one person gives up an advantage to help someone else.

    You’re missing the point. You keep trying to pin the conversation on wishy-washy nonsense. “Give up an advantage to help someone else” has little useful meaning here. I used Veronica Ivy as an example earlier. In a race where she placed first, the third place finisher Jennifer Wagner claimed it was unfair that Ivy competed. The second place finisher Caroline van Herrikhuyzen supported Ivy. Setting aside whether Herzog was right or not, what’s more sportsmanlike here? Ivy bowing out, or van Herrikhuyzen supporting inclusivity? These are both cases where hypothetically advantage may have been sacrificed to help someone.

    Sportsmanship is not exemplified by using an advantage that is artificial. Boosting one’s performance by “doping” is unsportsmanlike. Bringing a sham gender onto the field similarly is unsportsmanlike.

    Again, this isn’t something that really parses to anything. Doping isn’t analogous, and any possible advantage isn’t artificial. The medical suppression of advantage may be artificial. The efficacy of it may be circumstantial. But in principle, it’s nothing like doping. ‘Sham gender’ is, to be frank, just some dumbfuck colour commentary you’ve added.

    If someone feels better living as a woman, whether they’ve gone all the way with reassignment or not is fine. More power to them. However, as Germaine Greer pointed out in the previous video, that doesn’t make them actual females, does it?

    In what context? There are so few contexts where ‘female’ meaningfully refers to sex outside of medicine and science. Even then, the recognition of transgender identities is not that much of an issue much of the time. There is an obvious connection between sex and gender, but overwhelmingly, the categorization  of ‘male’ and ‘female’ we use with people day-to-day is social. What we interact with is not genitals or chromosomes, but rather appearance and identity. Across all people, some people get much more upset when they find that ones chromosomes, appearance and expressed identity don’t all line up. For a growing number of people, an increasing understanding that identity, in most contexts, is what we interact with when we treat people as people is enough to use that as a basis for recognizing people as male, female and enby.

    Anyway, if they want to participate in sports, I stand by my solution: A third category of “other” where transgenders can compete against other transgenders, bionic humans hybrids, maybe even robots and whatever else that’s not really naturally male or female that comes down the pike.

    Heck, why not throw in sharks with laser beams on their heads? Maybe a monster truck or two. You know, to keep it sportsmanlike.

    #38115

    Autumn
    Participant

    I suppose some clarification on why I would use the word ‘dumbfuck’ is in order.

    There exists a phenomenon in humans known as gender identity. While one might expect this is something we learn, there is a strong likelihood that the root of that identity is innate. Studies vary, but gender identity—the recognition of our own gender—is thought to develop around three-years-old. For most people, gender identity is consistent with primary sex characteristics. For others it is not, even from the onset of the development of their gender identity.

    Why this incongruence exists is not known. Currently, we look to neurology, but problematically, our understanding of the human brain is too limited to know exactly what we are looking for. The neurological studies that do exist tend to indicate that transgender people are neurologically different from cisgender people of the same biological sex. However, there is a lot of complexity to these results, and there are methodological limitations to theses studies. So while it’s tempting for me to say ‘brain studies show trans women have female brains and trans men have trans brains’, that’s not scientifically accurate.

    What we do know is in many cases, transgender identities are involuntary and persistent. There isn’t a known way to use psychology to make a person not transgender. There isn’t a known way to use drugs or shock therapy or other measures to make a person not transgender. At most we know how to coerce people into suppressing any expression of being transgender, but historically, that leads to bad outcomes.

    So when you start getting into this ‘true’ or ‘real’ or ‘sham’ language, no one is talking about something that isn’t real or evidenced. How we map gender incongruence to a conventional male/ female dichotomy isn’t a straightforward matter if you want to explore every nuance of subject matter, in part because that dichotomy is somewhat artificial in the first place. So when you say some of the things you do, it just makes it sound like you have no idea what you’re talking about. It makes you sound like someone who asks, “If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?”

    #38116

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I suppose some clarification on why I would use the word ‘dumbfuck’ is in order. There exists a phenomenon in humans known as gender identity. While one might expect this is something we learn, there is a strong likelihood that the root of that identity is innate. Studies vary, but gender identity—the recognition of our own gender—is thought to develop around three-years-old. For most people, gender identity is consistent with primary sex characteristics. For others it is not, even from the onset of the development of their gender identity. Why this incongruence exists is not known. Currently, we look to neurology, but problematically, our understanding of the human brain is too limited to know exactly what we are looking for. The neurological studies that do exist tend to indicate that transgender people are neurologically different from cisgender people of the same biological sex. However, there is a lot of complexity to these results, and there are methodological limitations to theses studies. So while it’s tempting for me to say ‘brain studies show trans women have female brains and trans men have trans brains’, that’s not scientifically accurate. What we do know is in many cases, transgender identities are involuntary and persistent. There isn’t a known way to use psychology to make a person not transgender. There isn’t a known way to use drugs or shock therapy or other measures to make a person not transgender. At most we know how to coerce people into suppressing any expression of being transgender, but historically, that leads to bad outcomes. So when you start getting into this ‘true’ or ‘real’ or ‘sham’ language, no one is talking about something that isn’t real or evidenced. How we map gender incongruence to a conventional male/ female dichotomy isn’t a straightforward matter if you want to explore every nuance of subject matter, in part because that dichotomy is somewhat artificial in the first place. So when you say some of the things you do, it just makes it sound like you have no idea what you’re talking about. It makes you sound like someone who asks, “If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?”

    Yes, while I think it is possibly very enlightening to imagine “walking in someone else’s shoes” you are still processing through your filters and experiences. As a result we have a world where John Lennon and John Kennedy can’t live. A world where the majority of ideologies are based on myths. So many people who insist they know how things are and should be. A pervasive and total lack of perspective.

     

    #38121

    Unseen
    Participant

    Some real females benefitting(?) from having to compete against a transgender:

    Male Athlete Thrown Out Of Olympic Trials For Pretending To Be Female

    and this:

    Eligibility rule keeps transgender runner out of trials

    #38122

    Davis
    Moderator

    How did you find that cum rag of a website Unseen? The headlines for their trash articles:

    “Pres. Biden Threatens Americans With Nuclear War If They Try To Overthrow Government”

    “Making George Floyd Into A Martyr Diminishes Black Americans”

    “Tucker Declares War on “Woke” Top US General and Wins Big”

    “Stew Peters Show: Bioweapon, Marxist Takeover PREDICTED”

    ____________

    To complain that the content isn’t even even remotely factual, is to completely miss the point.

    ——————

    I decided to make my own headlines:

    “UK goes beyond political Brexit and decides to physically separate from Europe casting out to sea heading towards America”

    “Whitehouse releases secret UFO files. Could they be somehow related to the fake COVID hoax? Click and find out”

    “Experts demonstrate that humans don’t actually breathe Oxygen but breathe carbon dioxide making green house gas emissions essential to our survival”

    “Scientists prove that squirrels aren’t real. So why did the government create robotic rodents with cameras in their eyes? You’ll never believe the answer”

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #38124

    Unseen
    Participant

    How did you find that cum rag of a website Unseen? The headlines for their trash articles: “Pres. Biden Threatens Americans With Nuclear War If They Try To Overthrow Government” “Making George Floyd Into A Martyr Diminishes Black Americans” “Tucker Declares War on “Woke” Top US General and Wins Big” “Stew Peters Show: Bioweapon, Marxist Takeover PREDICTED” ____________ To complain that the content isn’t even even remotely factual, is to completely miss the point. —————— I decided to make my own headlines: “UK goes beyond political Brexit and decides to physically separate from Europe casting out to sea heading towards America” “Whitehouse releases secret UFO files. Could they be somehow related to the fake COVID hoax? Click and find out” “Experts demonstrate that humans don’t actually breathe Oxygen but breathe carbon dioxide making green house gas emissions essential to our survival” “Scientists prove that squirrels aren’t real. So why did the government create robotic rodents with cameras in their eyes? You’ll never believe the answer”

    I admit the first link is to a site that’s “out there.” However, “even a broken clock is right twice a day.” LOL

    There were two links. You didn’t notice the other one or your tactic is to use the first one to distract from the second one.

    #38125

    Unseen
    Participant

    Autumn, it seems much of your argument in support of transgender athletes is to muddy things up with arguments like “things are complicated.” I would agree by adding, “unnecessarily complicated.”

    You’re clearly allergic to metaphors or comparisons to the degree that you simply won’t accept any. Well, gee, everything is unique in some sense or other. Non-uniquess is the framework metaphors are based on, after all, so criticizing a metaphor for not being an exact 1-to-1 comparison is

    I’ll hazard another real-world example that isn’t exactly the same, though it has many similarities. She “identifies as black,” she tanned her skin and kinked out her hair in Afro-American stylings and voila, she thought, “I’m black!”:

    Sometimes something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck is something that’s trying to look like a duck and has learned to sound like one.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #38128

    Davis
    Moderator

    There were two links. You didn’t notice the other one or your tactic is to use the first one to distract from the second one.

    After reading the first link I didn’t bother with the second. Though yeah, after having read it…turns out to be a fairly sensible article. Might have been better to post that one first before the blatantly provocative and offensive article.

    I personally don’t see the problem with trans athletes participating in sports in the gender they identify with. If you want to get into “fairness” then you need only look at the genetic lottery to show you what fairness means. It is the person born with great genes + hard work and dedication who wins. It isn’t fair that a natural born superhuman with a month of swimming lessons can out-swim a dedicated twink who has trained and dedicated their life to improving and “being all they can be in the pool”. But the genetic lottery makes every game and facet of life less fair when you consider how much we reward qualities you were simply born with and have the resolve, resources and tenacity to train and dedicate yourself to (and that’s setting aside rewarding people who simply have good looks, a naturally positive disposition and other stuff they got through little or no effort on their part). For me the question is: why would we accept transgender women as women in virtually everything else but draw the line at sport? To me…drawing the line at sport seems like a remnant of discomfort with trans-people, a sort of … okay I can tolerate trans people up to a point but my discomfort overtakes me here. I can go along with having F on their passport, and using women’s washrooms and using female pronouns and treating her as a woman in most ways. But sports? Ehhhhhhhhh….fairness and stuff. With sports having reached an absolute science in nearly every athlete flirting with and pushing the boundaries of substance enhancement products, highly skilled coaches trained in sports psychology, sponsorship, insanely unequal salaries and rewards and a near fanaticism with the winner and a vague acknowledgement of every other participant…it just seems like “fairness” is a half-hearted concept in sports. Sportsmanship? I don’t think it is the be all and end all of sports but more meaningful than “fairness”. I don’t see how being trans would diminish or augment sportsmanship in any way.

    #38129

    Autumn
    Participant

    Autumn, it seems much of your argument in support of transgender athletes is to muddy things up with arguments like “things are complicated.” I would agree by adding, “unnecessarily complicated.”

    Two things are happening here:

    1) The subject is inherently complicated. There is no simplistic or generalized rule that can be applied with the massive number of contextual variations.

    2) You don’t even understand the basics of transgender identities. Why would I delve in to complexity with you when you lack even a fundamental grasp of what you’re talking about? How would that conversation go anywhere?

    You’re clearly allergic to metaphors or comparisons to the degree that you simply won’t accept any. Well, gee, everything is unique in some sense or other. Non-uniquess is the framework metaphors are based on, after all, so criticizing a metaphor for not being an exact 1-to-1 comparison is I’ll hazard another real-world example that isn’t exactly the same, though it has many similarities. She “identifies as black,” she tanned her skin and kinked out her hair in Afro-American stylings and voila, she thought, “I’m black!”:

    This has nothing to do with uniqueness. You’re being reductionist, truncating transgender identities to ‘I identify as…” then drawing specious comparison to things that aren’t analogous. Rachel Dolezal is not analogous unless, perhaps, you are comparing social response to her and social attitudes regarding transgender people. But apart from that, there isn’t much comparison to draw at the moment. Gender isn’t race. Transgender identity isn’t a rhetorical device or merely the behaviour of identifying as something. It’s a real world phenomenon that has been studied scientifically, and the knowledge and data we’ve amassed to date is not magically transferrable to racial identity. In the same sense, we can’t study the impacts of road running on people’s knees and then magically apply our findings to elbows due to a specious connection in that they are both joints on human appendages. It just doesn’t work that way.

    This is not to suggest that racial identity cannot function similarly to gender identity or that Rachel Dolezal’s identity is less valid. But evidence currently exists for the former that doesn’t exist for the latter, and again, there is no magical transference we can conjure up to make our studies on one apply to the other.

    #38131

    @davis – ….it just seems like “fairness” is a half-hearted concept in sports.

    Any Olympian with a medal would say “I won my Olympic medal because I was ruthless in my pursuit of it”.  There might be less than once second between first place and last place in the 100M final. When Usain Bolt won his, who finished 4th in any of those races? I can’t remember the name of the 4th fastest man on the planet in any of his 3 Olympic wins. Not even if they were sponsored by the Goddess of Victory herself. To the victor the spoils, I suppose. Sport is a fair as anything other sphere of life is.

    #38132

    Davis
    Moderator

    Sport is a fair as anything other sphere of life is.

    I would say it sports is probably more fair than other spheres of life which are a lot less closely observed, quantified and regulated. But they aren’t as remotely “fair” in so many senses as one might think. Redo that race a few seconds earlier and the 2nd place runner could have easily have won by a fraction of a second and gotten the Gold and the majority of of the glory. These trials are just as ritualistic as they are about “determining who is the best” and they come with a massive dose of cultural baggage. I’m not saying that there aren’t measures in place to ensure a certain level of fairness. It is simply not remotely robust enough (certainly at a cultural and social level) to justify banning trans athletes competing within the gender they identify with because…uhhhh….fairness. There are simply too many other aspects of sports which are highly unfair that we don’t seem to care about (certainly not enough to change things). If fairness was really such an important issue then we would ensure everyone had the same diet, trainers, opportunities and we would give less strong athletes a head start. If fairness was really an issue we would dedicate a proportionate amount of attention to those who came in second and third place or did much better than we would have expected. Women’s sports would get just as much attention as men’s sports (as opposed to the general worship of ideal male sports body and athleticism). If we were fair in sports then we wouldn’t have some players getting €50 million a year while others need to live on government assistance. We wouldn’t hound some athletes into depression after media press junckets. We would be far more vigilant in testing athletes for substances and would ban way more substances. There would be more referees/judges observing the game. In tennis you would allow more technology to ascertain if a ball was in or out and linesmen would be allowed to consult digital data more. We would ensure that a stadium always had an even number of supporters for each team and not allow the home team audience who outnumber the visiting team audience to boo their opponents. We would be far more strict and vigilant about racism, homophobia and other forms of bigotry that happen all the time in sports and officials and referees do little about. And if you think cultural baggage doesn’t unfairly put pressure on players…then just think about how utterly revolutionary the news was that 1 single NFL player came out of the closet (while hundreds obviously suffer inside and whose game will definitely suffer because of it).

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