Is spirituality minus the spirit still spiritual?

[jakelafortParticipant]

Robert, it would be interesting to see how many Foxophiles have come to realize they were being played.

[_Robert_Participant]

If they couldn’t figure that out before this…..I doubt it. They are mostly xtians, so grasping simple, obvious truths are an impossibility for many of them.

[NoelParticipant]

Learned about spirituality at an AA meeting.

At the time I was on the fence between deist, atheist, agnostic, etc. So it made sense to “turn my will and my life over to a higher power” to help a brother out with his many addictions. Even let a buddy of mine convince me to take me to a monastery for a weekend where they were practicing and teaching, what else?, Spirituality. At one seminar a Monk had us close our eyes and imagine Jesus in the room with us. He then said that He, Jesus, would go around with an empty box and we could get rid of all the demons that haunted us by placing them in a box and giving them to Jesus. Those Demons were no longer mine. Jesus took them off my hands. Walked out of there feeling so much lighter. Went to bed, woke up the next day, and looked out the window. Nothing had really changed. So much for that. It would take a lot more work on myself to get rid of those Demons and Jesus just was not up to that job.  Frankly, after that experience it drew me further away from belief and closer to secularism.

Can’t buy into the whole spirituality thing because it goes hand in hand with belief. I did think that a Power Greater Than Myself  could be a group. But what happens to the Greater Than when the Group dissolves, as often happened?

[DavisModerator]

“Woke” has become such a snarl word by those resistant to social progress that it has lost all value (which was perhaps part of the point). I mean, literally anything that reactionaries don’t like can be labeled woke:

• New tax funded shelter for the homeless: wokeness
• Considering abortion for incest rape victims and allowing exceptions to anti-abortion laws: out of control wokeness
• Admitting there is even a tinge of racism anywhere: communist woke agenda

I simply avoid the term because I think replacing that with: giving a shit about marginalised people, admitting there are problems to solve and helping ensure they have equality, equity and basic dignity is more effective, true and something that should not be controversial.

Why is there pushback against it? Because hearing otherwise destroys their world view that they aren’t part of the problem, that we live in a post-biggoted world, they have to make tiny changes in the way they behave and speak with is too much of a burden or downright conservative biggotry. Some or all of the above.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Davis wrote:

Why is there pushback against it? Because hearing otherwise destroys their world view that they aren’t part of the problem, that we live in a post-biggoted world, they have to make tiny changes in the way they behave and speak with is too much of a burden or downright conservative biggotry. Some or all of the above.

It’s the over-zealous bullying that gets people’s backs up, as much as it is a knee-jerk reaction to progressive ideas.

[NoelParticipant]

Davis wrote:

“Woke” has become such a snarl word by those resistant to social progress that it has lost all value (which was perhaps part of the point). I mean, literally anything that reactionaries don’t like can be labeled woke:

• New tax funded shelter for the homeless: wokeness
• Considering abortion for incest rape victims and allowing exceptions to anti-abortion laws: out of control wokeness
• Admitting there is even a tinge of racism anywhere: communist woke agenda

I simply avoid the term because I think replacing that with: giving a shit about marginalised people, admitting there are problems to solve and helping ensure they have equality, equity and basic dignity is more effective, true and something that should not be controversial. Why is there pushback against it? Because hearing otherwise destroys their world view that they aren’t part of the problem, that we live in a post-biggoted world, they have to make tiny changes in the way they behave and speak with is too much of a burden or downright conservative biggotry. Some or all of the above.

Thanks Davis. Just asked for this definition in another post.

What you said. What I think it is too.

Guess if someone does not wish me  to wield that word they can weaponize the shit out of it and cause the rest of us mere mortals to never use it.

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Unseen’s devil:

“I’d like to think most people lack wicked intentions. Micromanagement of others’ speech or actions is resented and is why wokeness is controversial and, sadly, it’s what the woke don’t get or don’t care about.”

Nazis, KKKers, other hate group individuals lack wicked intentions? Oh i see. Their objectives are benign? They didn’t mean nuthin bad hanging an innocent and outnumbered Black from a tree and torturing him before executing him to the delight of the 3000 good White Christians who got in a little entertainment before sunday church.

Would you say “Nazis, KKKers, other hate groups” are more the rule or more the exception to the rule?

[UnseenParticipant]

Noel wrote:

Can’t buy into the whole spirituality thing because it goes hand in hand with belief. I did think that a Power Greater Than Myself  could be a group. But what happens to the Greater Than when the Group dissolves, as often happened?

I always thought that the “Power Greater Than Myself” might be one’s Future Self or Better Self, which would also be more empowering than a state of dependency.

[UnseenParticipant]

@davis

For many, the problem presented by The Woke (those who interpret what is permitted and what must be destroyed) lies in the the hubris of thinking they have a Pipeline to the Truth and a Right to Interpret and Judge others’ actions and expressions and, that done, to level extrajudicial punishments (boycotts, demonstrations at their place of employment, etc.).

A teacher, a newscaster, a politician says something a bit clumsily or thoughtlessly but with no intent or malice and suddenly their career, for which they worked so hard for many years, is in jeopardy or is even lost. Look around you. It happens. It’s no longer enough to say “We try not to use that term anymore” (“retarded,” “negro,” “bum” or “hobo”). No, among the more extreme wokesters it’s take away their livelihood, harass or hound them, get them to submit.

It reminds one of a somewhat milder form of Mao’s Red Guards. They make it too easy for the anti-“woke” to prosper.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  Unseen.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Unseen,

“Would you say “Nazis, KKKers, other hate groups” are more the rule or more the exception to the rule?”

I would say depends on the demographic. Also when political climate skews toward fascism and reactionary forces strengthen those numbers grow closer to the rule.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Here is a short podcast or section of podcast on the anti-woke viewpoint.

[DavisModerator]

Unseen and Simon, you are buying into the ridiculous narrative that “woke” people (already a nebulous and useless term at this point) engage in excessive “cancelling” or bullying. This is bullshit. It is a phenomena of extreme elements of progressive sub-culture. Just as say, hate-spewing cranks are an overzealous element of conservative culture. If it is berserk to paint conservativism by the loud and outlier group of openly and ruthlessly bigoted cranks, then so it is the case of painting “woke people” (whatever that means at this point) as truth imposing cancelling crusaders. You’ve bought into the narrative. I’m surprised you are that gullible. An overly large portion of society buys into impossibly overgeneralising narratives (that is not surprising). Try not to be that gullible.

Having said that, you also speak as though making a claim about how things are is a bad thing. As though other groups do not do it (most people/groups do such a thing multiple times a day). Apparently it is okay when one group insists x is the case but very scary when a group claims something you do not like is the case. Try to be more perceptive of blatant hypocrisy. It’s not that hard to spot.

One of you, at least, seems to be under the impression that it is bad when people pay a social price (losing friends, career, reputation) for doing or saying something stupid. While this isn’t always great, and we should be more understanding, people justifiably pay a social price all the time for doing or saying something extreme. You would lose friends if you said something awful to them, your job of you said something outrageous at work etc. and rightly so. Apparently this is okay when say, a black football player kneels during a national anthem, a politician speaks up against a war the US is engaged in or a politician proposes a radically progressive policy…but this is terrible when someone says something grossly offensive about a large portion of a vulnerable group of Americans, even if that is unknowingly but then refuses to recant.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  Davis.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  Davis.

[UnseenParticipant]

Davis wrote:

Unseen and Simon, you are buying into the ridiculous narrative that “woke” people (already a nebulous and useless term at this point) engage in excessive “cancelling” or bullying. This is bullshit. It is a phenomena of extreme elements of progressive sub-culture. Just as say, hate-spewing cranks are an overzealous element of conservative culture. If it is beserk to paint conservativism by the loud and outlier group of openly and ruthlessly biggoted cranks, then so it is the case of painting “woke people” (whatever that means at this point) as truth imposing cancelling crusaders. You’ve bought into the narrative. I’m surprised you are that gullible. The gullible have (that is not surprising). Try not to be gullible.

So, you don’t think that “extreme elements of progressive sub-culture” don’t engage in excessive canceling or bullying? How much canceling or bullying qualifies as non-excessive, then?

I read your spiel and I got your opinion, but that’s all it is. Your opinion which others can only agree or disagree with. I would like to see people disagree with each other without endeavoring to ensure the other party feels the sting of misfortune, especially when they had no worse sin than simply being “not with it.”

[UnseenParticipant]

@jake

Good podcast. BTW, most people may not realize (by perhaps not paying enough attention) that McWhorter is a black man.

[DavisModerator]

Unseen I would be delighted if you can demonstrate that a significant proportion of woke people engage in the kind of bullying and cancelling you mentioned. Any empirical source will do. Conservative pundits weaving a ridiculous narrative, don’t count. I haven’t seen any evidence that it is anything other than a fringe activity or false narrative, but I would be really interested in being proven wrong and will happily admit so.

[Author]

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