Please remind me, why do we need pitbulls?

Homepage Forums Small Talk Please remind me, why do we need pitbulls?

This topic contains 68 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 5 days ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 69 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #39247

    Davis
    Moderator

    The stafordshire bull terrier my brother had was actually really beautiful (that particular breed is quite nice) with really soft short fur and she was extremely sweet and wonderful to have, until she got very angry at and did major damage to our other dog (requiring a lot of stiches and taking a fair bit of time to recover). I am less interested by looks in any case but by the potential to and frequency of destroying humans and other pets. If any one breed kills multiple humans in a jurisdiction in a year, that breed should never have been bred.

    To be honest, many breeds should be banned for health reasons including many kinds of pugs which suffer terribly with respiratory and/or bone joints issues. It is grotesque that any human being kept breeding a dog that looked this kind of pathetic ugly cute despite fully well knowing it would lead to mass suffering and that selfish humans would continue buying them knowing the dog can hardly breathe and will get awful arthritis as they get older.

    #39248

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Did you notice? You didn’t answer the question raised by the OP.

    I find * “Humans First” is a good answer to any question on non-sapient beings when their instincts and appetites conflict with our rights and interests.  I don’t hate other living things and don’t support hurting or killing them just for sick jollies, but we humans have to live too.

    * If and/or when we encounter sapience in other species from this world or other worlds or in A.I., then I will broaden this to say “Sapients First.”

    Why can’t someone make do with a 20 lb mutt or a Springer spaniel or even a boxer rather than a pitbull? I view the desire to own a pitbull as due to deep psychological insecurity and wanting something, be it a dangerous dog or a gun, to scare other people.

    Maybe we could genetically engineer the worst impulsiveness out of pitbulls or other such breeds, and maybe not.

    If we can’t, punishing and suing owners who don’t restrain dangerous animals will make such breeds uneconomical to own, which means breeders won’t breed them and the breed will be chalked up as another proof of Darwinism.  Simple enough way to deal with the Pitbull problem.

    Also, video, audio, sonar, radar, and tactile sensors, combined with firearms, archery, and other weaponry don’t need the same expensive maintenance as dogs and don’t have the unintended consequences of dogs, so there is that.

    And, to paraphrase the Texas aphorism, some people need scaring, including people who are careless or malicious with dangerous pets.

    I hope all of this is a good answer.

    #39249

    Unseen
    Participant

    To be honest, many breeds should be banned for health reasons including many kinds of pugs which suffer terribly with respiratory and/or bone joints issues. It is grotesque that any human being kept breeding a dog that looked this kind of pathetic ugly cute despite fully well knowing it would lead to mass suffering and that selfish humans would continue buying them knowing the dog can hardly breathe and will get awful arthritis as they get older.

    I’m against two things: 1) breeding to type which along with the physical traits desired by the breeder brings in undesirable traits as well, due to the necessary inbreeding. 2) I’m wildly opposed to breeding in birth defects like flat faces or extremely short legs or narrow hips (pugs, for example, usually deliver by caesarean section). That applies to cats as well.

    We don’t need purebred dogs, cats, or even horses when the cost to the animals is ill health and the only “advantage” is that it conforms to a highly artificial and indefensible human preference.

    #39250

    Unseen
    Participant

    Maybe we could genetically engineer the worst impulsiveness out of pitbulls or other such breeds, and maybe not.

    If we can’t, punishing and suing owners who don’t restrain dangerous animals will make such breeds uneconomical to own, which means breeders won’t breed them and the breed will be chalked up as another proof of Darwinism.  Simple enough way to deal with the Pitbull problem.

    Also, video, audio, sonar, radar, and tactile sensors, combined with firearms, archery, and other weaponry don’t need the same expensive maintenance as dogs and don’t have the unintended consequences of dogs, so there is that.

    I agree that the solution to the pitbull problem will have to be through making owning one a risky and potentially expensive proposition, exposing the owner to both civil and criminal liabilities. Facing a judgment in the $100s of thousands and a year or more behind bars might have people thinking, maybe I don’t need a pitbull. Maybe a boxer would do (for example). Boxers have that bulldog look but are much nicer dogs. When they do injure children, it’s by playing too hard, not biting, so well supervised and trained, they are a good family dog not known for killing young family members.

    It’s simply not in the cards here in the United States to rapidly rid ourselves of pitbulls. I’d give it easily a hundred years. But who knows? If we make it too risky, maybe we could largely get it done in three generations.

    #39251

    Davis
    Moderator

    Enco, you seem to be operating on the absurd free market idea that people make rational economic decisions and avoid irrational economic decisions. The threat of being sued doesn’t stop some people from doing dangerous shit. People keep doing dangerous shit, even when there is a high chance of getting caught and going to jail (bank robberies for example), driving 225km/p/h (150mph) or doing things that can cause significant personal damage. If the possible repercussions are more children, adults and pets being mauled to death then you should do a whole lot more than expect people to make rational decisions in the face of large penalties because some pitbull owners will get such dogs, penalty or not, and those are the pitbulls I would be most afraid of.

    A percentage of humans are ridiculously irrational, and libertarians and free market warriors who do not include this fact when grabbing onto and defending the more extreme ideologies would be playing Russian roulette with people’s lives and livelihoods if they ever got power.

    #39252

    Davis
    Moderator

    Enco, you seem to be operating on the absurd free market idea that people make rational economic decisions and avoid irrational economic decisions. The threat of being sued doesn’t stop some people from doing dangerous shit. People keep doing dangerous shit, even when there is a high chance of getting caught and going to jail (bank robberies for example), driving 225km/p/h (150mph) or doing things that can cause significant personal damage. If the possible repercussions are more children, adults and pets being mauled to death then you should do a whole lot more than expect people to make rational decisions in the face of large penalties because some pitbull owners will get such dogs, penalty or not, and those are the pitbulls I would be most afraid of.

    A percentage of humans are ridiculously irrational, and libertarians and free market warriors who do not include this fact when grabbing onto and defending the more extreme ideologies would be playing Russian roulette with people’s lives and livelihoods if they ever got power.

    #39253

    jakelafort
    Participant

    it is always the same analysis. How does it impact humans. Ya know we all feel horrified when we think of our pets suffering. And we feel horrified by cultures that eat dogs. However, the vast majority of us have no problem supporting the meat industry. But livestock is similar in intelligence and emotions to the dogs and cats we cherish. If our culture were different in meats we consume we would feel same sense of revulsion if our pet goats, cattle or pigs were being raised because we would be acculturated to look the other way at cats and dogs being slaughtered. So those reactions are aesthetic. You’d become super attached to those untermensch animals if they were traditionally our pets.

    Having said that i would be in favor of sterilizing the breeds that are most dangerous to ourselves and other animals. I would also be in favor of sterilizing the breeds that can only have birth through cesarean and have breathing issues. It is just not right. Neither is the meat industry. If you love cats and dogs remember it could as easily be cats and dogs. If you think cats and dogs are so much more emotional and intelligent then take the time to read ethologists. You will be surprised what you learn. I guess the only revenge livestock get is in the numbers who get disease and die early because of their predominantly meat diet.

    BTW homeowner’s insurance covers most dog bites but many policies have exceptions for the bigger biters like pits, rots and chows.

    #39254

    Unseen
    Participant

    @jake

    I seem to remember that it was Ralph Waldo Emerson (or maybe it was my Uncle Bob) who said that “Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.” It’s differences that make one culture different from another. In Hinduism (which is a lot more than just a religion) you don’t eat beef. In Jewish culture you don’t eat pork or shellfish.

    Yes, we are not rational when it comes to our pets as it is with our children. We eat cattle and pigs and chickens because we don’t love them or sleep with them the way we do with our dogs and cats.

    Sorry, I’m not about to be hobgoblinized into becoming a vegetarian. My cat isn’t a vegetarian, either. It’s not in her nature to want to eat a carrot. Quite frankly, it’s not in mine, either. I don’t believe I was taught to like meat. I think it’s simply part of me.

    This is true of so many people that cattle and pigs and chickens are a crop, like corn or soybeans or Douglas firs.

    If we lost sleep over the things you bring up, we’d have nothing to eat.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #39256

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, the quote is a FOOLISH consistency. The issue is whether I am being foolish or the masses who eat meat and adore their cats and dogs are being foolish. (I will take Thoreau over Emerson. Remember the famous incident when Emerson visited Thoreau in jail over his civil disobedience?)

    As to religiously inspired cultural norms those can be discarded like a bad habit. The issue is over right and wrong. I am not going to equate a tree with a pig, cat or dog. But i am going to equate a cat or dog with a cow, pig or horse. And I am going to assert that we have much in common with those animals. And not just a biology that is close enough so that we use animals for medical experimentation. We have enough in common in terms of emotion and reason that we ought to use our hearts as well as our heads in contemplating how we treat them.

    WE ARE NOT SPECIAL CREATION! We are not as far removed from animals as we think. I’ve noticed a trend that supports my suspicion from the time i was about ten years old. If we are a product of evolution are we so different from other mammals? We observe greater and greater depth in other animals. There used to be entire classroom lessons on how Humans are unique. But over the years the arrogance has been exposed. The analogy that finally made me quit meat which i loved to eat was that of slavery. The great majority of Whites just went with it. It was wrong then. It is wrong now. They did not use their brains or they did not care. Either way that is no way to live one’s life.

    The great thing is we are on the cusp of lab grown meat that is affordable. I for one will hitch my wagon to the lab meat.

    #39257

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Over the past 45 years I have probably had meat to eat maybe twice a month. Generally a fish that I caught if I am lucky that day or maybe some pepperoni on a pizza at work. Eggplant, legumes and mushrooms can give you that same texture. I really don’t care to make a point of it to others, but I do think if we all cut back, even by 50%…….much good will come from that. The world going “cold turkey” (LOL) is highly unlikely, but cut backs can be real.

    #39261

    Unseen
    Participant

    Giving up meat like giving up pets is one of those things that might have benefits but ain’t gonna happen.

    Some people will give up meat who don’t find meat all that appealing. As for the rest, it is a source of pleasure like sex, which is something else that few people will give up no matter the benefit.

    Nonpie-in-the-sky  solutions will likely be three-pronged: 1) feed that induces significantly less methane production (seaweed looks like a good possibility), 2) including an antigas-production substance into their feed as well, and 3) cultured meat, which once perfected could take the place of a lot the meat sold (ground beef being one example).

    All of those technologies are on the threshold of full commercial development. Let’s prod them to keep going full speed ahead and fund them as well.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #39263

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Speaking of seaweed…ever have a seaweed salad? It is really good and supposed to be a crazy healthy food. I miss eating meat. I get an impossible whopper now and then which fools me. There are some pretty good veggie burgers on the market and you can make em yourself if so inclined. I agree with Robert about eggplant. A good Italian restaurant can make eggplant parm a worthy substitute for meat. And I still eat fish which is a treat. Yeah i am kind of a hypocrite cuz i don’t want to read about their emotions or intelligence. It would kill me to give up salmon.

    The prospect of lab meat is exciting. Can’t wait.

    #39264

    Unseen
    Participant

    Speaking of seaweed…ever have a seaweed salad? It is really good and supposed to be a crazy healthy food. I miss eating meat. I get an impossible whopper now and then which fools me. There are some pretty good veggie burgers on the market and you can make em yourself if so inclined. I agree with Robert about eggplant. A good Italian restaurant can make eggplant parm a worthy substitute for meat. And I still eat fish which is a treat. Yeah i am kind of a hypocrite cuz i don’t want to read about their emotions or intelligence. It would kill me to give up salmon. The prospect of lab meat is exciting. Can’t wait.

    Cultured meat is getting better but it’ll never replace a great standing rib roast or rack of babyback ribs, but for hamburger meat (and the grocery stores sell tons of that) or ground turkey or chicken, it should do fine. Intitially, the problem was that they only cultured the muscle tissue whereas a good hamburger, for example, will have a fair amount of beef fat in it. They are working on that.

    Of course, taking only the best parts of a cow so that people can still have steaks and ribs, what do you do with the rest? Well, you can feed it to the pigs because they are omnivorous and occasional predators, and when you slaughter a pig and take out the good stuff, what’s left over is still quite useful. Much of it can be smoked and turned into ham, for example, or turned into breakfast sausage, bratwurst, kielbasa, etc. My dad used to joke that “They use every part of a pig but its ‘oink.'”

    I love eggplant, though I generally get a Szechuan version from the local Chinese restaurant.

    #39265

    Unseen
    Participant

    Getting back to the OP on a bit of a tangent. One solution to the pitbull problem: eat them!

    (wink)

    #39266

    jakelafort
    Participant

    My understanding is that lab grown meat using cells of donor animals will be indistinguishable from meat cuz it will be actual meat except that it will not have the hormones and antibiotics and the percentage and type of fat will be controlled. I hope i am correct about that. But the plant based stuff that is available now is ok. Not great really. But i can’t tell the difference between my memory of a whopper and an impossible whopper cuz the whopper has tomatoes, lettuce, mayo ketchup.

    I used to love tongue, brisket, corned beef, a good steak, lamb chop… Hot dogs are disgusting with or without the ballpark.

    Pit bulls for food is the canine version of Swift’s A Modest Proposal.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 69 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.