Please remind me, why do we need pitbulls?

Homepage Forums Small Talk Please remind me, why do we need pitbulls?

This topic contains 71 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 1 month, 4 weeks ago.

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  • #39221

    Unseen
    Participant

    Famed dog trainer Cesar Millan’s pitbull killed a dog sent to his Canine Psychology Center for help and on another occasion attacked a visitor. (Full article here.)

    “The dogs aren’t bad. It all comes down to irresponsible owners,” they say, but if famed and respected dog trainer Cesar Millan can’t keep HIS dog under control, WHO CAN?

    Also, by that standard, we can only control the dog after it’s killed a baby, a jogger, an elderly lady out for a stroll. We could head all of those off by simply not having them around, couldn’t we? We tell people they can’t own tigers or crocodiles but when it’s a dog, it gets a pass.

    And it’s not just death. It’s maiming, scarring, PTSD as well. All for what benefit?

    To head off one common objection, I’m referring to pitbulls as a general type of dog and not a kennel club official breed.

    I could run down a list for you of supposedly placid family pitbulls that maimed or killed a child in the same family. They just flipped one day. Off the leash, they have actually killed adult people.

    Other dogs can be bad tempered. Cocker Spaniels, for example, who are on almost every list of dogs that bite, …but seriously, which breed is more capable of killing even an adult person? A bite is bad; being torn apart is worse, isn’t it?

    If people kept alligators as pets and mostly they didn’t attack but once in a while they did, we’d have NO PROBLEM at all banning them, so what makes a pitbull so different that so many people think the idea of ridding ourselves of them is a horrific idea?

    #39222

    jakelafort
    Participant

    We don’t get rid of all humans cuz one percent of us are sociopaths and another large percentage are dangerous due to indoctrination. Reputation as a dangerous species if not completely backed by evidence is like racial stereotypes. There is also a long history among humans of demonizing entire groups particularly when they are at war. And then there is the whole human-centric perspective that is so pervasive. We look at other species as having value or being pests strictly based on how they impact us. It is also kind of fucked up to think that dogs are a product of artificial selection and are truly best friends among all species and yet if one breed is seen as more dangerous we eliminate the breed.

    I’d like to see more no kill shelters, rescue animals being adopted, spaying dogs, and for dangerously aggressive dogs of any breed special arrangements so that the public is not endangered.

    #39223

    Unseen
    Participant

    We don’t get rid of all humans cuz one percent of us are sociopaths and another large percentage are dangerous due to indoctrination. Reputation as a dangerous species if not completely backed by evidence is like racial stereotypes. There is also a long history among humans of demonizing entire groups particularly when they are at war. And then there is the whole human-centric perspective that is so pervasive. We look at other species as having value or being pests strictly based on how they impact us. It is also kind of fucked up to think that dogs are a product of artificial selection and are truly best friends among all species and yet if one breed is seen as more dangerous we eliminate the breed. I’d like to see more no kill shelters, rescue animals being adopted, spaying dogs, and for dangerously aggressive dogs of any breed special arrangements so that the public is not endangered.

    Humans are and always will be a special case, Jake. So, what you’re doing is trying an end run around the problem that somehow many people want to treat pitbulls as a special case who, they’d like to believe, are only vicious when poorly-trained. But if the most famous dog trainer in the country can’t take the killer impulse out of his own dog, who can?

    What’s the special trait that a pitbull can bring to a person of family that a golden retriever or corgi wouldn’t? Well, they look and are perceived as intimidating, so it is kind of like walking around with a gun on your hip, isn’t it?

     

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #39225

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, i just have a different perspective than most. I look at the history of our species and i see unhinged narcissism. From a geocentric universe to a universe created for our benefit and humans made in god’s image. Empires were thought to be impervious to historical forces and superior thus justifying exploitation of nongroup members as lesser or nonhuman.

    So i am sensitive to exploitation of animals. I oppose raising animals to be slaughtered. It took me long enough to come around but i could not ignore the history of slavery and the masses who saw it as normal and just. The few abolitionists were the freaks. Raising animals to slaughter is the contemporary pink elephant that slavery once was.

    If our species is to survive we have to care about all humans not just our groups and ultimately we need the empathy to care about all sentient species. So for me the notion of eliminating the breed most prone to biting is anathema. From a quick perusal of biting stats it appears mixed breeds are barely behind pit bulls. Pit bulls were responsible for the highest percentage of reported bites across all the studies (22.5%), followed by mixed breeds (21.2%), and German shepherds (17.8%). So if we can justify eliminating pit bulls then mixed breeds can not be far behind. And that smacks of racial purity! hahaha I have never had a pit bull but i met people who love em. No doubt some people train pits to be aggressive to scare off prospective break-ins. I am not saying all of the aggression is due to training. Some is of course. But probably some pits are simply that way through artificial selection.

    #39226

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I think of them as a mammalian version of a velociraptor and thus “they should all be destroyed”. A 5 year old girl on my brother’s street was blinded in one eye and needed her scalp reattached after a “family pet” jumped the fence. Cops chased it and shot it like 30 times right in the street.

    #39227

    Unseen
    Participant

    From a quick perusal of biting stats it appears mixed breeds are barely behind pit bulls. Pit bulls were responsible for the highest percentage of reported bites across all the studies (22.5%), followed by mixed breeds (21.2%), and German shepherds (17.8%). So if we can justify eliminating pit bulls then mixed breeds can not be far behind. And that smacks of racial purity! hahaha I have never had a pit bull but i met people who love em.

    Pitbulls are big terriers. Have you seen terriers go a-ratting? They bite and shake hard, often tearing the poor rats to pieces. A pitbull latches onto a person and shakes until the flesh becomes dislodged, then goes in for more. If they can’t tear the flesh off, they just hang on, locking their jaw and making it difficult to get them to let go without killing them. This is their so-called “gameness” manifesting itself.

    My point is that a pitbull “bite” can’t be compared to even a German shepherd’s bite. And, BTW, I’d include all the large guard dogs as well if only because of their power and incredible bite force. The dogo argentinos, the cane corsos, the presa canarios, in short all the molosser (mastiff) breeds and types as well.

    We don’t need them. They perform no good function some less dangerous and less unpredictable breed can’t fulfill. Unless of course you just want a dog to intimidate people with.

    One last thing, for every person killed or maimed by a pitbull, the breed is particularly hard on smaller dogs and cats easily killing dozens for every person attacked. Some poor cat is out peacefully sunning itself as it does daily on its owner’s driveway and along comes a stray pitbull who thinks, “Now there’s something I could kill.” There are dozens of Youtube videos (which I won’t show) of pitbulls killing cats or small dogs. Literally, almost instantly. I love my cat and I have two pitbulls living on my floor, so I am very careful about when or how I let her out because if one of them attacked her, there’s little I could do to save her life.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #39230

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Collateral damage!

    I was unaware of Pits on cats and dogs fatalities. You have a legit query. Unseen, how would you get rid of pit bulls?

    #39234

    Davis
    Moderator

    Bitbulls are completely prohibited in many countries/jurisdictions including the UK, Belgium, New Zealand, Ontario and some cities in the United States including Denver. I have never seen a pitbul in Europe (though they must exist in some countries where they are still legal) and I have no problem breeding them out of existence (considering we bred them into existence). When it was legal my brother had a pitbul/terrier which was the sweetest caring dog, until it seriously harmed our other dog.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #39237

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen and Fellow Unbelievers,

    Some perspective here:

    One, no breed of pet is a moral agent capable of choice and responsible for it’s actions.  Only the human owners are moral agents and therein is where your ire and disgust should lie.

    If Cesar Millan’s dog mauled Queen Latifa’s dog, then Millan, if found guilty by a judge and jury, is the one civilly and criminally liable for the dog’s actions.

    Two, every breed of dog, from a tea-cup Chihuahua to a 6 foot tall English Mastiff, has a closing jaw pressure of at least 750 pounds and can run anywhere from 25 to 48 miles an hour.  They all can be startled by noise or subsonic sounds and can attack humans and other animals.  The tea-cup Chihuahua could kill a person if the dog nipped a Cartoid Artery.

    For this reason:

    Three, in the United States, utility workers such as electrical line workers, cable technicians, natural gas line workers, home electrical and gas line meter readers, as well as private telecommunications workers, plumbers, electricians, interior decorators, and home makeover workers are not required to do work in homes where people don’t have their animals restrained.

    Either a pet owner restrains their animals (including things like lizards and snakes) or they can sit in the dark, do without water and heat, isolated from the world, and with no new marble counter for their dead laptop.   Here, we don’t treat the hired help the way some people want to treat Doctors and Nurses.

    Finally, as dangerous as a pitbull can be, there are fellow human beings who want to restrain development of things like desalinization plants, farms, power stations, and housing developments all for the sake of a Snail Darter or a Spotted Owl.  Those Loraxes are a threat to lives of millions.

    We humans aren’t chosen for dominion over other animals by a God, but we do have as much a niche in the Universe as anything or anybody else and each of us have the Natural Right to self-preservation, without which no pet or domesticated animal would have a niche of it’s own.  Whether the Pitbull stays in a tamer form or not, it’s still Humans First.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling. Pit bulls can't do that
    #39238

    Unseen
    Participant

    Collateral damage! I was unaware of Pits on cats and dogs fatalities. You have a legit query. Unseen, how would you get rid of pit bulls?

    To pitbull fans, the human toll of death and suffering and loss of loved ones and loved pets with the ongoing PTSC and other psychological traumas…just collateral damage because having pitbulls is so much more important.

    #39240

    Unseen
    Participant

    @Enco

    Did you notice? You didn’t answer the question raised by the OP.

    Why can’t someone make do with a 20 lb mutt or a Springer spaniel or even a boxer rather than a pitbull? I view the desire to own a pitbull as due to deep psychological insecurity and wanting something, be it a dangerous dog or a gun, to scare other people.

    What justifies living with the horrific toll inflicted on the nation by these unpredictable dogs?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #39242

    Unseen
    Participant

    I do recognize, BTW, that ridding the nation of pitbulls would be a long term effort. We simply can’t send cops or soldiers out to confiscate and kill people’s pets. In China they can and do such a thing but not in the United States.

    It could start by heavily taxing the ownership of this type along with raising the penalties on owners for dog attacks to astronomical levels.

    If it takes a century, it’s a worthy goal. Owning a pitbull should turn out to be similar to owning a jaguar.

    #39243

    Davis
    Moderator

    Nobody needs a pitbull. A pitbull doesn’t offer anything many other breeds can offer. Since they are the agents of a huge number of human fatalities, injuries and other pet injuries and since they are easily bred out of existence (and we bred them ourselves) this is a no brainer solution. Who was responsible for the dog’s misdeeds is irrelevant to the grieving family which has lost a child or pet or a human having stitches give to them at the hospital. It is not the irradiation of a species but no longer maintaining a breed which we created.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #39245

    Pitbulls are responsible for the majority (72%) of dog attacks and cause the most trauma during those attacks. They are also very ugly pugs and nothing like my handsome avatar.

    #39246

    Unseen
    Participant

    I’d far rather be around a Doberman pinscher or many of those mastiff-based guard dog breeds than a pitbull.

    I think there’s plenty of evidence showing that the tiny nervous breeds (Chihuahuas, Yorkies, mini-Pinschers, etc.) are far better at deterring burglars or home intruders than the big dangerous dogs. And that’s because they make such a racket that they deter the bad guys from even trying to gain entry.

    Pitbulls are ugly with their little slit eyes and their perpetual evil grin but apparently that’s part of what owners find endearing about them.

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