Please remind me, why do we need pitbulls?

Homepage Forums Small Talk Please remind me, why do we need pitbulls?

This topic contains 68 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 4 days, 23 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 69 total)
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  • #39307

    Davis
    Moderator

    The problem with your sort of solution is that it is totally post hoc.  Once the pitbull maims the little old lady, kills the family’s Yorkie or cat, or kills the 2 year old by yanking his arm off, sue the bastards!

    How about a solution that keeps all that mayhem from happening in the first place?

    What Unseen said. Letting people do virtually whatever they want and letting the families of dead victims deal with the consequences and suing people is a deranged solution when you can so easily breed-out pitbuls and allow the remaining 1000 breeds as a shit ton of breeds to choose from and enjoy. You are so extreme Enco and you do not even realise it.

    #39308

    _Robert_
    Participant

    The problem with your sort of solution is that it is totally post hoc. Once the pitbull maims the little old lady, kills the family’s Yorkie or cat, or kills the 2 year old by yanking his arm off, sue the bastards! How about a solution that keeps all that mayhem from happening in the first place?

    What Unseen said. Letting people do virtually whatever they want and letting the families of dead victims deal with the consequences and suing people is a deranged solution when you can so easily breed-out pitbuls and allow the remaining 1000 breeds as a shit ton of breeds to choose from and enjoy. You are so extreme Enco and you do not even realise it.

    Yes….reminds me of the result of banking/mortgage deregulation debauchery. The entire US economy on the precipice of massive bankruptcy, loan defaults, and depression. Only then we need to “do something”. The fix…’pay off ‘ the perpetrators with tax dollars. Dems and Republicans, one and the same.

    Ahh yes, the genius of the “hands off crowd”. Such efficiency! It is so fucked up we all expect periodic crashes. Let’s just allow it all and deal with the aftermath of a pit bull attack, a greed driven bullshit Boeing 737 design, toxic municipal water supplies, a hand blown the arm off by an M80 firecracker, billions of dollars of business fraud, unmasked kids huddled together in classrooms in a pandemic and a climate that is now challenging our very existence. In the name of freedom and “efficiency” and distrust of intellectual experts.  Let’s just Laissez-Faire ourselves into extinction. Thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers.

    #39309

    jakelafort
    Participant

    If the author of that article i linked bout Pits is correct then it is incumbent on the lets end the breed folks to not include breeds that are being counted as culprits but are not even Pit Bulls. Can you imagine though how politically untenable it would be? The government is coming to sterilize your beloved Pit Bull. How far can OTHER UNDESIRABLES be? If you tried to end the breed using financial incentives and penalties it would be like the allure of prohibition and become a status symbol for those who openly have Pits and pay the price. If you publicized the attacks and serious injuries/deaths that resulted you would be accused of government propaganda.

    In acknowledging the accuracy of Unseen’s assertion about utilizing a Pit Bull to intentionally attack another I was not negating my earlier assertion about not knowing any dog specific criminal statutes. So for instance your pit bull gets loose and mauls and kills a person. I am not aware of any statute that makes it criminal. In fact any potentially dangerous instrumentality that is directed against another with the requisite mens rea is a criminal matter.

    #39310

    Davis
    Moderator

    Yeah. I often find that these “hands off” people, actually support “getting tough of crime” which really baffles me because if regulations should be so laxed to the point that “victims just deal with the consequences and it will all be sorted out through lawsuits and personal economic interest” then I honestly don’t see why people would support the police randomly stopping black people and frisking them, long jail sentences for minimally violent crimes and a whole sea of bootlicking policies.

    In fact, to be honest, I do not understand why the logical line is drawn at: absolute minimal government, necessary policing, dispute courts and a few minor services. I completely agree those are all necessary, but I don’t understand why some think it is moral to have those but immoral for the government to pay for homeless shelters. I mean, doing so adds somewhat to having safer streets (as do the police). So, if government policies that help keep the streets safe are a waste (or even immoral) then why is paying for the police at all moral? If you want freedom, then it should be everyone for their fucking selves with their own private bodyguards, making their own law and sorting out ALL their own shit for themselves. Libertarian ideology where we have just the kind of highly limited government services that suit intelligent and economically aggressive people but fuck all the others and fuck anyone who suffers without them simply have never explained to me then, why the minimal services they think we should have (basic police, courts etc) are rationally necessary but others aren’t, especially considering that there are an even smaller minority who think ALL government services are wasteful, unnecessary and immoral.

    Ultimately, regardless of any political ideology, I simply cannot take anyone seriously when they think that really not that expensive government programs that take care of the most vulnerable and desperate people are “wasteful” and “wrong”. There is a sociopathic error in their head or they drank a disturbing cultural coolaid. Same with those who have an ideology that cannot accept prohibiting potentially extremely dangerous things when its prohibition causes trifling inconvenience to a tiny few.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Davis.
    #39312

    Unseen
    Participant

    There is another alternative to obliterating the breed and that is to breed out of them the personality traits that make them so dangerous. The problem, of course, is that the pitbull fan base loves the aggressiveness and gameness and the intimidation you have at the end of a leash which you don’t get to anything like the same degree with a big dog like a Viszla or Collie.

    Any dog can bite, but some dogs can do much more damage than others.

    (BTW, as a bit of a semi-relevant aside, Dr. John Bradshaw, author of Cat Sense, may be the world’s #1 cat expert, and he wants to breed the predator drive out of cats, given the damage cats do to native species of birds and small animals and the reticence many owners feel toward keeping them as 100% indoor pets. My own cat is an indoor cat and, frankly, I would hate to see the day when she isn’t at the window chattering to herself while looking at nearby birds. It’s not her fault she’s a predator or that she’s here rather than somewhere around Egypt. I’m irrational like so many other people about their pets, who also forget that we humans are the #1 invasive species problem. Forget cats, Burmese pythons, and the rest.)

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    #39316

    jakelafort
    Participant

    There is a wizzar pissar netflix doc. (Unnatural Selection) on genetic engineering and biohacking and there is a guy who is trying to do what you suggest Unseen. I guess it will take a few generations to accomplish. Apparently you can buy a crispr set to do your own gene editing and it is fairly inexpensive.

    Can we also find the gene(s) that causes stupidity, mindless following and ideology in humans and change the course of civilization? Oh that would be playing god says the skeptic. Yeah like your god has done great and we can’t improve on perfection! But yeah the sci fi technology is now and it will likely be a disaster on balance. There are so many suffering with genetic diseases that may have help coming though.

    #39317

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    I am not aware of statutes that make owners or keepers of dogs who injure another criminally responsible. There may be such statutes i simply do not know.

    People can be held criminally responsible for vehicular homicide or wreckless endangerment, which doesn’t necessarily require premeditation or malice afforethought.  An auto and a pet are equally property and can be controlled by the owner, albeit a pet is alive, so I don’t see why what applies with vehicles cannot equally apply with pets.

    If there were no law establishing criminal liability for acts of pets against Life, Liberty, and Property of humans, all I can say is legal professionals and Legislators don’t get out much, do they?

    And where there is such a law, it should apply to all pets and livestock equally, not just specific species or breeds, to account for everything from a kid’s amoeba under a slide to a gangster’s yard tiger.

     

     

     

    #39318

    jakelafort
    Participant

    As i explained Enco the tendency in law is to hold individuals accountable for their actions alone. Until recently there was no criminal responsibility for parents of kids who run amok. It is sins of commission that are under a microscope. Typically there is no responsibility for bystanders. So if you are walking and observe a woman drowning in two feet of water you can keep walking without any responsibility though it would have been simple enough to save the woman. If there were strict liability for acts of animals on the part of keepers/owners then we would need a whole lot more courts, judges and attorneys.

    I don’t think it makes any sense to hold accountable criminally owners/keepers of pets/livestock irrespective of aggressive tendencies of the species/breed and observed aggressive tendencies of individual pets/livestock that kill or injure. Why would you hold an individual criminally responsible for an aberrant act of a heretofore placid animal that acted out of character because of an undetected brain tumor?

    #39319

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis and Robert,

    How do know, in trying to preclude all risk by legislation, that you are not creating greater harm?

    Yes, nitroglycerine is a deadly explosive and forms Dynamite when combined with diatomaceous earth, and Alfred Nobel, out of guilt for it’s use in warfare, devoted all his profits from the Dynamite he invented to promoting world peace.

    Yet, properly administered in a medicalized form, nitroglycerine helps patients of angina and cardiac arrest and is a life saver.

    Thalidomide, when used as a sedative by pregnant women, created horrible defects in their infants back in the Fifties and Sixties, yet it is also now discovered to counteract cancer cells, Graft-to-Host Disease, Tuberculosis, Leprosy, and it stimulates T-Cell growth in HIV/AIDS patients.

    By contrast, water is a necessity for life and is the source of all life, yet in steam form it can burn to death, in as little as a quarter cup in liquid form it can drown to death, and in ice form it can kill by frostbite, hypothermia, or concussion.  Water can carry either deadly pathogens or deadly chemical spills, and enough water continuously dripping can erode a Grand Canyon or bring mountains falling down.

    As chemists have always observed, it is the dosage and the administration, not necessarily the substance, that makes a poison.

    Shouldn’t it be certain combinations of inanimate and non-sapient things and people that should be of concern and not the inanimate, non-sapient things by themselves?

     

    #39320

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I don’t see the medicalized form of nitroglycerine being affected by outlawing deadly fireworks (commercial or homemade) that maims kids and mostly drunk adults every July.

    The research states that an estimated 15,600 people required emergency room treatment in U.S. hospitals due to accidents involving fireworks last year, up from approximately 10,000 in 2019.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/07/01/fireworks-injuries-are-skyrocketing-in-the-us-infographic/?sh=690645cb7e69

    Around 8 or 9 people die every year (if a fireworks factory doesn’t explode) as dogs hide under beds and veterans with PTSD self medicate to get through the redneck holiday week. If you can’t get real M80 class stuff (there are federal limits on amount of charge allowed, however legal mortars have more charge than the old M80s)… you can buy components and make your own in the basement.

    The family of Angel Vega says he was celebrating the holiday on Sunday in Earlimart when he set off a legal firework that had a short fuse. The family says the firework exploded his right hand off and damaged part of his left hand.

    Vega was taken to a Delano hospital before being transported to Community Regional Medical Center in Fresno. His hand had to be amputated and he has another surgery set for Friday.

    https://www.kget.com/news/local-news/delano-teen-loses-hand-in-firework-accident/

    The family has created a GoFundMe account to help raise money…

    Of course they did. Probably don’t have insurance. The US is an idiocracy.

    #39321

    It is illegal to sell any breed of dog in Ireland unless it has been micro-chipped (but not with 5G!).  FAQ.

    Is this a standard policy in the USA or anywhere else?

    #39322

    Davis
    Moderator

    Enco, you are grasping at straws to maintain/justify an extreme ideology. I do not believe that breeding out dangerous dogs will create more harm. If there is a chance that pitbulls contain the cure for cancer or could be the perfect assistance dogs for people with dimensia then, I don’t know, we could go find some in the many countries too poor to enforce these laws and reintroduce them into the dog population or freeze some eggs. When you take the position that we do nothing under the wild paranoia the government lives to corrupt and control then you end up with places like Mississippi: poor, less safe states at the bottom of almost all statistics, unregulated, a horrific place to have social problems or be disabled and maniacally against passing sensible laws. Conversely if we let the government enact whatever laws they like without questioning them or challenging them then yes you would end up with a corrupt controlling government

    Why you cannot take a middle ground position, where you are by default sceptical of new possible laws until the case is made but reasonably permissive of sensible ones, at least so that some laws get passed, is beyond me. You can have Mississippi or Denmark, Alabama or New Zealand

    #39323

    Davis
    Moderator

    By the way, I think I have sufficiently disparaged enough American states that I have to have a disclaimer here dead I do not believe that the US is some terrible disfuncional country nor that there aren’t many admirable states such as Vermont or Massachusetts for example. While there is a lot of anti-Americanism in Europe/Canada/NZ, I do not want to be associated with it. Without American ideas and innovations and some precedent the world would be a sorrier place. However more extreme conservative movements in the US are not just problematic for Americans but have a dispersive affect on the rest of the world and should be aggressively challenged. I also love a lot of American culture and have a blast when I travel there

    #39324

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Reg i am not aware of it being required anywhere in the USA but there are certainly pet keepers who use it.

    #39328

    _Robert_
    Participant

    By the way, I think I have sufficiently disparaged enough American states that I have to have a disclaimer here dead I do not believe that the US is some terrible disfuncional country nor that there aren’t many admirable states such as Vermont or Massachusetts for example. While there is a lot of anti-Americanism in Europe/Canada/NZ, I do not want to be associated with it. Without American ideas and innovations and some precedent the world would be a sorrier place. However more extreme conservative movements in the US are not just problematic for Americans but have a dispersive affect on the rest of the world and should be aggressively challenged. I also love a lot of American culture and have a blast when I travel there

    American was great (unless you had the wrong skin color) in the 1950’s -1980’s when much of Europe and Asia were rebuilding from piles of rubble. Now it is a relatively backward thinking society, full of religious zealots. Pretty much last place now on human wellness, education, racism/sexism, climate change, wealth equality, and pandemic response. Can’t even make a decent fucking movie anymore. So yea, there are two paths we can go by. Is there really time to change the road we are on?

    Oh and fuck pit bulls.

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