Roeing Away…

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This topic contains 55 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Davis 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 56 total)
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  • #42810

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Neither side of the debate ever fully agrees on the comprehensively and logically defined core issue of exactly when during gestation a fetus attains “personhood” and has its own right to live, and it’s practically impossible to do so. Every declared line of demarcation therefore is arbitrary. End of life decisions when the patient can’t speak for her/himself depend on how each state legally defines them, so why not the same for beginning of life laws… until an amendment to the US constitution could clarify it for everyone. I know, such an amendment is highly unlikely. Looks like California’s about to pass its own amendment just to add legal clarification.

    As far as I’m personally concerned, it’s totally up to the mother, because I believe a fetus is not even capable of having a “personal” interest in its own survival, until it has to actively seek care outside the womb, e.g. most obviously, intentionally and actively sucking milk. Yeah, that’s just my personal opinion, and my arbitrary line at when I think the state should be involved in caring for the new life. But at that point and even before that point, the state should be fully supporting the mother and fetus or baby,  according to what the mother needs and asks for.

    Those who wrote our constitution could not have known this would become an issue so full of personal, medically available options, and scientific understanding of fetal development and its mother’s gestation. We can now even reasonably estimate if and when a fetus can feel pain from any procedure or intervention, so I think that should certainly be another consideration. (This emotionally based “beating heart” demarcation is total bullshit… it starts beating even before it has valves that enable it to pump blood.)

    #42811

    Autumn
    Participant

    Neither side of the debate ever fully agrees on the comprehensively and logically defined core issue of exactly when during gestation a fetus attains “personhood” and has its own right to live, and it’s practically impossible to do so. Every declared line of demarcation therefore is arbitrary.

    For the purposes of law, there is a question of how much this matters. Even without legal restrictions, the likelihood we’d see some surge of late term abortions absent medical necessity or exceptional circumstances is quite low (or potentially non-existent since few to no hospitals will provide access anyway). While philosophically interesting to consider the question, in practical terms, we’re talking about terminations in first and second trimester, or those done for medical reasons e.g. protecting the parent carrying the child.

    The question still arises. We have those who will defend right to life from the moment of fertilization, but that’s a somewhat dissimilar debate from the difference between, let’s say, a 7-month-old premie, and an 8-month-old still in the womb.

     

    #42812

    Unseen
    Participant

    When life begins is a meaningless sideshow. It’s a matter of definition and one can (and people do) define “life” in such a way that serves their purpose. And the purpose is more about values than facts.

    The U.S. is embroiled in a culture war that has exposed a deep division in our culture between forward-looking progressive folks and backward yearning traditionalists for whom the world was a far better place in America in that decade or so after the end of WW2.

    The sad thing is there is no way of resolving this conflict.

    The Evangelical movement represents that backward-looking worldview and they have quietly been working on taking over the government and installing their value system. Anyone wanting to know more about this might want to watch the Netflix movie The Family.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #42814

    Belle Rose
    Participant

    @davis

    While Mexico is passing more and more liberal legislation, states are banning the teaching of slavery brutality, abortions, discussing the fact that gay people exist and penalising corporations that disagree with their policies.

    I just want to live somewhere in peace where I can blend in and be left alone. Mexico or New Mexico are the only viable options for me. I don’t like a lot of what goes on in Mexico either but right now I just want to get out of the US. I’ve also thought of other Latin American countries, Costa Rica is up there as a possibility, we’ll see.

    Despite that, the US is still hardly a “dysfunctional state”. While some Europeans would say it is, I call that a gross overgeneralisation.

    Can you explain what you mean by that? Um….the US is a shit show right now. I’m hoping European countries might start taking in US citizens on asylum visas. It’s getting bad.

    #42815

    Belle Rose
    Participant

    @unseen

    The Evangelical movement represents that backward-looking worldview and they have quietly been working on taking over the government and installing their value system.

    That is 100% true. When I was a Christian I used to listen to Dr. James Dobson and they were ALWAYS talking about wanting to over turn Roe v. Wade and this was…over a decade ago now and probably way longer than that!!!!

    #42817

    _Robert_
    Participant

    It’s almost like atheists are at always at a disadvantage contrasted against someone who just “knows” the creator is on their team and that they are “righteous”. Rationality (the only tool we have) is completely off the table.

    #42818

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    You were saying?

    PHOTOS: Mexico becomes world’s second-deadliest war zone

    PHOTOS: Mexico becomes world’s second-deadliest war zone

    Mexico’s Cartel Wars: Living in a War Zone
    https://www.occrp.org/en/blog/11220-mexico-s-cartel-wars-living-in-a-war-zone

    In Mexico, One Cartel Is Cleared, but Others Storm In (New York Times. Search on DuckDuckGo)

    Maybe there are chi-chi, fru-fru enclaves of Americans out of the line of fire, but that is not how the locals live in far too many areas. And how long will those enclaves last if the cartels decide to expand territory?

    As shaky as things are here in the United States, it still doesn’t stop Mexicans, Latinos from Central America, as well as Southeast Asians, Caribbeans and Africans from coming here from there.

    They are a lot of my clientelle. Unlike too many lifelong U.S. Citizens, they are friendly, unassuming people who are even friendlier when one makes an effort to speak their language, both by remembering college classes and by using a translator app.

    And one thing they never do is come in acting entitled, showing their ass, and ready to “buck-up” on somebody who doesn’t get the ball in the right spot on words.

    Like I said earlier, the direction of the world’s travel iteneraries show that there still is a lot worth defending here and the problems are not unsolvable.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Fixing NYT link if possible
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Couodn't get link to work
    #42821

    Davis
    Moderator

    Enco is absolutely relentless in sticking his heels in and standing by a stupid point. Thank you for reminding us Enco of a skill none of us would like to have. Is conceding even a mundane point outside of your abilities?

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  Davis.
    #42823

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Belle Rose,

    I had heard about this group back in 1999:

    Women On Waves
    https://www.womenonwaves.org/

    I hope this is never a need for anyone, but if this is ever the case for you or a loved one, perhaps that would be a much better route than ripping up roots to move to Gangland. And you could fight the good fight in the States too.

    #42824

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    Passing on things I know that could save somebody’s Life, Liberty, and Property and standing by it is just one of many skills. I could always charge for lessons. 😁

    #42826

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Passing on things I know that could save somebody’s Life, Liberty, and Property and standing by it is just one of many skills. I could always charge for lessons. 😁

    The smiley face feels encouraging to me, in light of other lessons that seem more obviously one-directional. 🙂

    @asianne I can move posts on Mexico to another topic if you like on their own merit, although I just found this quote in wikipedia:

    Since 2021, Abortion in Mexico is no longer a crime, although its legalisation still varies by state. On 7 September 2021, the Mexican Supreme Court unanimously ruled that penalising abortion is unconstitutional, setting an important precedent across the whole country. The procedure is easily available on request to any woman up to twelve weeks into a pregnancy in Mexico City and the states of Oaxaca, Hidalgo, Veracruz, Colima, Baja California and Sinaloa. Before 2021, abortion was severely restricted in the rest of the country.

     

    #42830

    Unseen
    Participant

    Roe v. Wade is just the beginning. They also have their eyes on contraception, premarital sex. interracial marriage, and anything having to do with LGBTQ.

    They’re Coming for Griswold, and Obergefell, and Lawrence, and Loving

     

    #42840

    Unseen
    Participant

    The dominoes are starting to fall:

    #42841

    Unseen
    Participant

    Americans Favor Abortion Rights, But It’s Complicated

    What Americans believe about abortion depends upon what demographic you’re looking at.

    #42842

    jakelafort
    Participant

    To answer the guy in vid posted by Unseen who asked what is to stop?

    As to retroactive laws it is the prohibition against ex post facto laws in body of constitution. As to the shocking disparity between criminalizing the rapist v the woman who aborts the rapist’s fetus it is the 8th amendment.

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