The plus side of the establishment of Israel…

[jakelafortParticipant]

I have read that Gazans support for Hamas is waning. If they have come to understand who they elected and how they are by design the fodder for Islamic propaganda ya’d hope they would actually betray their whereabouts let alone lose support. Talk about voting against one’s interest! But that is from a western perspective. When you have been indoctrinated the way Gazans have you don’t see it the same way.

I have thought all along it will be more of the same when this war ends. Replace scum with scum. Sure hope i am wrong. They need a strong secular kind of leader who alters the cultural landscape and its values. If it is more of the same Jew hatred and river to sea BS then nothing good is gonna come from it.

But yeah Robert there is a much higher standard and far greater scrutiny of Israel. Endless atrocities and wanton cruelty all over Africa and the middle east and so little news coverage. Protests are reserved for the evil zionists and complete with moral indignation of the misinformed.

[UnseenParticipant]

Once again for people who don’t seem to want to understand, my argument isn’t about evil nasty Jewry which needs to be exterminated, it’s about how the creation of Israel has left the world with a litany of problems.

I don’t hate Jews. My argument, I repeat, would be the same and the effects would be much the same if Israel were created as a  Christian, gypsy, Japanese, or atheist enclave, with the locals being driven away to make room.

Jake, inventions happen when the time is ripe for them. For example, both Germany and the U.S. were working on the atomic bomb. The increasing expansion of the universe and dark energy were both discovered independently in a relatively close timeframe. Your evidence is not evidence.

Robert, student protesters are upset with the toll being taken on Palestinian civilians. They are not (except for some fringers—and there are always extremists) in support of Hamas. If they are more anti-Israel than anti-Hamas, maybe it has to do with who is killing those civilians. As of a few days ago, the total was in the neighborhood of 34,000, about 60% of them children.

BTW, Israel likes to pose as the lone democracy in a sea of dictatorships, yet it is now #6 on the list of countries imprisoning journalists.

 

[jakelafortParticipant]

“Once again for people who don’t seem to want to understand, my argument isn’t about evil nasty Jewry which needs to be exterminated, it’s about how the creation of Israel has left the world with a litany of problems.”

Oh i understand. Your interest is strictly academic and yet it is limited to Israel. Just keep searching left wing anti-Israel Jewish propaganda. You will find more bullshit to post. There is a shit load of lies to populate the religion of Jew hatred. Those lies are so transparent. Accuse Jews of being like us westerners in colonialism and apartheid and genocide. Project our sins onto them. Describe them as Nazis so that we can expiate our guilt for not having helped. Hey aint it funny that the Germans actually poisoned the wells in their little genocide in Africa?

I know your heart bleeds dodger blue for the locals who were driven away. That area has seen Christians and Muslim alternate control. Jerusalem was said to have the streets in a river of blood during one of the crusades. The Turks ruled it with an iron fist. The British brutally put down a Palestinian uprising. The locals you mention include Jews. The locals attacked. The locals brought in outsiders to attack to drive the Jews out. The locals lost their war of aggression. There are consequences for losing. People are driven out of their homes all over the world and throughout history. I wonder if any native americans were driven out of their homes? I wonder if Jews were not driven out of their homes and repeatedly expelled all over Europe? Such obvious faux concern for the Palestinians driven out of their homes particularly when a state was there on a golden platter and when Gaza was a de facto state and yet they did what they did.

Germany made the time right for the atomic bomb. The manhatten project was caused by the axis. But i assume humans being human at some point the march of more and more lethal weapons would have advanced. And yet there is no gainsaying the 80 million who died and all of the attendant suffering from the creation of Germany. Furthermore you have not contravened the benefits of the state of Israel i raised.

No surprise that you use the death toll figures supplied by Hamas. Yeah they don’t lie to further their cause. They would not use human as shields. Among the protestors there is a shit load of support for Hamas and calls to kill Jews. The protestors were ripping down posters of hostages held by Hamas before there was an offensive by Israel! They have been fed the kind of BS you have been spooning out. If they cared an iota for Palestinians or Muslims in the middle east why don’t
they protest? Israel and Palestine is a pimple on an elephant’s ass compared to all of the Muslim on Muslim shit. There is a cultural/religious mind virus hating Jews that goes back centuries and now psuedo intellectual BS is giving a rationale for their irrational hatred.

Nobody is saying Israel is perfect. To what extent the story is true or more left wing BS (i see the source is left wing) i cant say. The US under Adams locked up journalists. But the endless harping on every aspect of Israel is very very tired and very very telling.

[jakelafortParticipant]

There is a big story ahead uncovering the infiltration of Islamists into our universities.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/october-7-victims-sue-sjp-amp-for-serving-as-hamas-propaganda-arm/ar-AA1o4UI7?ocid=winp2fptaskbar&cvid=ff9f72e0ac944273adfb3fb82cd00554&ei=38

[_Robert_Participant]

Yeah, the deeper you dig, you uncover that constant “Christian” element, hatred for Jews. So much so, that they come in to support Jihadism.  It’s complicated because they believe Jews are God’s “chosen people”. Yet, they did turn over the savior to be executed. They don’t buy into the Jesus story. So, they bring major doubt and shade on the main theme of xtian salvation. However, Israel is required for all that end-times prophesy nonsense. So, the xtians get so confused.

Then there are the major stereotypes that persist throughout the centuries. Despite being immigrants, “look at how prosperous those goddam jews are”. Loan sharks, JEW-el merchants and oddly, so many are actually much hated atheist/scientists who smash religion but still somehow retain their “Jewness”. “The black is the muscle working for the Jew”. “George Soros and Zuckerberg are the puppet masters of the universe”. Jewish space lasers…

The once-again rise of white nationalism here in the US is all the proof Jews need to know that they are always just one long night away from great peril.

 

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

I posted for him a video some time back of some of Israel’s greatest inventions and innovations and he still didn’t listen.

And to Unseen, the time is ripe for invention when minds are free and capital is free to move towards creating the invention. Of all nations in the Middle East, Israel has both free minds and free movement of capital.

People who only believe in the sufficiency of Al-Qu’ran, Al-Haddith, and Al-Sunnah, who ban urury in financing, and who think working with numbers is like consorting with Al-Shaytan couldn’t match the inventions of Israeli inventors in 100,000 years.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

I looked over the Wiki page of Israeli inventions with great interest. Although I didn’t orally take a pill form of the Camerapill, the same tiny camera technology from the other end was what helped my Gastroenterologist to spot and snip off a polyp and keep the polyp from becoming something far worse. To my Gastroenterologist and inventor Gavriel Iddan, I am ever grateful!

• This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: SpellCorrect was being stubborn about Gavriel's name

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert,

The jist of what you are saying about Israel is absolutely correct, although you did make the common mistake of assuming that Nelson Mandela was a peaceful protester against South African Apartheid. Amnesty International did not consider him a “Prisoner of Conscience” for that reason.

Nelson Mandela also evidently just stood by while his wife Winnie called for and presided over “necklacing” of other South Africans who opposed the African National Congress. A gruesome practice this “necklacing.”

The Mandelas also sympathized with the PLO, so they really are something that does not belong in a conversation on Middle East peace.

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Oh i understand. Your interest is strictly academic and yet it is limited to Israel. Just keep searching left wing anti-Israel Jewish propaganda. You will find more bullshit to post. There is a shit load of lies to populate the religion of Jew hatred. Those lies are so transparent. Accuse Jews of being like us westerners in colonialism and apartheid and genocide. Project our sins onto them. Describe them as Nazis so that we can expiate our guilt for not having helped. Hey aint it funny that the Germans actually poisoned the wells in their little genocide in Africa?

You’re the one who blindly hates anyone who criticizes Israel. But substitute any other people’s government there misbehaving as consistently as Israel has, and I’d be just as critical.

In the past, you’ve heard me criticize America’s horrific excesses. You were silent. You feel a deep allegiance to Israel but give our own excesses a pass? Hmm…

Facts are not bullshit. What’s bullshit is being in denial of the facts.

You, for some ineffable reason, brought up Germans poisoning wells in Africa. “The poisoning of wells by German colonial troops in Africa occurred during the Herero and Namaqua genocide, which took place between 1904 and 1908. This brutal campaign of extermination targeted the Herero and Nama people in German South West Africa, now known as Namibia.”

I have no trouble criticizing that OR the Holocaust. Both were horrific.

Like most people who own an allegiance to Israel that blinds them, as soon as Israel gets fairly criticized, you accuse the critic of antisemitism. Like false accusations of rape, whenever obvious false accusations are made, it takes the edge off the accusation.

Stop it. I’ve never met a Jew I disliked, I would’ve married a Jew back in my marriageable days (though I wouldn’t have converted for obvious reasons). I’ve had many Jewish doctors over the years, patronized Jewish businesses, but because I can see the mistake that was made by Israel’s creation, with the attendant dire consequences, as well as the heavy handed pattern in how they treat Palestinians, I understand the hostility toward Israel.

A true antisemite would hold the Jewish people collectively responsible for the activities of Israel. I do not. I don’t even hold Israeli Jews totally responsible, because Israel is headed by a Trump-like government and, like Trump, Netanyahu’s decisions are colored by the threat of criminal prosecution. He’s not that popular anymore.

Anyway, the accusation of antiseminism shouldn’t be tossed around as lightly as you do.

An interesting article by the man who defined the definition of antisemitism that government agency uses decries its misuse to suppress free speech: I drafted the definition of antisemitism. Rightwing Jews are weaponizing it

[UnseenParticipant]

America’s commitment to Israel has grown due to (a) our original commitment to the mistake of its creation and our inability to admit the magnitude of the mistake, causing us to double- and triple-down and (b) the grip the Israeli and the allied evangelical Christian political lobbies have on Washington politicians on both sides of the aisle.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Betterunseen,

“You’re the one who blindly hates anyone who criticizes Israel.”

Move the word blindly between who and criticizes and you are closer to accurate. It is just the government, right? So lets obsessively regurgitate the left wing fabrications about Israel. That is what you’ve done. The same spoon fed lies that the lefty college kids have ingested and regurgitated. The frenzied fruit cups parading their moral indignation and championing the freedom fighting Hamas warriors. You have suspended your critical faculties in this one instance because the government of Israel is beyond the pale reprehensible. It is far worse than North Korea, Iran, KSA and a host of other nations? It is worse than the Hamas regime, in fact. You continue to pigpile on Israel as you have from the beginning because it is a problem. We created this problem. Substitute any other government misbehaving as consistently as Israel? Surely you jest. How can anyone take you seriously when you cop to an obvious falsehood?

I have criticized the government of the US and done it here. It is not an obsession and i am happy to be an American. Find a government that is clean as the driven snow. There is no question Isreal is the best nation in the middle east and under the most egregious circumstances. What happened to Americans of Japanese descent during the 2nd world war? What always happens to civil rights when a nation is under duress? That kind of pressure is always present in Israel. The government was bound to go right. And sure Israel has religious fuckheads who dont want to do their civil obligations to the IDF and who want to go into occupied territories. Big fat hairy deal in relation to every stinking nation in the world. The Palestinians would have annihilated the Jews if they had the power. Jews have the power and don’t. What other military has the courtesy to call the enemy and warn them to get out? I doubt the USA would tolerate Hamas and Hezbollah on its borders lobbing rockets and initiating terrorist attacks. Collateral damage? Mess with the bull you get the horn.

Why did i bring up poisoning the wells? That is pretty obvious isn’t it. That is one of many accusations Germans and Christians everywhere made against Jews but it turns out to be Germans actually are guilty of it.

I know some of your best friends are Jews. You know you are in your tiny almost perceptible way doing your part to perpetuate antisemitism. The lefty BS you are espousing is a new blood liable but unlike the far right’s overt racism it has a facade of intellectual support. What a crock of shit. And of course the lefty’s always deflect by saying exactly what you say.

[UnseenParticipant]

@ jake

FYI, I’m not for taking active steps to end the existence of Israel. It seems far too late for that. However, using American tax dollars to subsidize everything they want to do and turning a blind I toward the country’s incremental drift toward apartheid and Palestinian ethnic cleansing—done in the interest of keeping Israel a Jewish rather than democratic state—needs to be resisted for the same reason we need to resist a creep toward Christian nationalism in the U. S.

And if you’re going to start throwing the epithet “antisemite” and “antisemitic” toward members of this forum, you’d better start by defining how you use the term, because you seem to be relying on a very broad definition that has the side effect of curtailing free speech.

• This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Unseen.

[UnseenParticipant]

I’ve been called an antisemite both directly and by implication by a member. Question for the mods: Is that within the guidelines? To wit…

6. Defamation. You may say anything you like, no matter how offensive or unflattering, provided you demonstrate the charge is reasonably true. A more serious charge requires more and better support. If you announce that Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry are a bunch of racist pigs, you must have a proportional amount of evidence to back your claim.

In a group like this, to call someone a Jew-hater and bigot, basically, is not a term/accusation to be thrown around casually.

[jakelafortParticipant]

“In a group like this, to call someone a Jew-hater and bigot, basically, is not a term/accusation to be thrown around casually.”

Oh but it is in the crowds holding your manufactured and regressive views. You parroting and espousing the left wing lies is thin cover for your real meaning. It is either that or you are a useful idiot. But since i have seen you question the narratives of other ideologies i think it is the former. Unless i missed it you have added a dollop of hatred in asking why Israel should even exist. How does it benefit us? Only Jews have to justify their existence in a Jewish nation. Muslim nations all over the middle east and in parts of Asia and you don’t question their existence or ask for how it benefits the world. The benefit to Jews the world over is by implication of no significance. As i have said double standards, higher standards and hypocrisy.

Again the feigned concern for Palestinians displaced and mistreated by Jews in Israel when there is no concern or even acknowledgement of the Million Jews expelled in every single nation in middle east. They weren’t in any way involved in the formation of Israel. Why no concern? Gee i wonder. Why were the Mizrahi ethnically cleansed to borrow a term used to calumniate Jews? Gee i wonder.

Lets look at apartheid that is real and never mentioned by lefties. Most Palestinians in Lebanon are stateless. They are not entitled to Lebanese citizenship, though most were born in Lebanon and irrespective of how many generations their families have lived in Lebanon. Without citizenship, Palestinians in Lebanon do not have Lebanese identity cards, which also entitles the holder to health care, education and other government services. Palestinians living in and outside the 12 official camps, can receive health care, education and other social services from UNRWA.[20] AcFollowing a 2001 amendment on foreign ownership of property, which stated that the foreign person must hold the citizenship of an internationally recognized country, Palestinian refugees came to be excluded from land and property ownership. Non-citizen Palestinians are legally barred from owning property,[7] and barred from entering a list of liberal professions.[8]cording to Human Rights Watch, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon live in “appalling social and economic conditions.”Employment requires a government-issued work permit, and, according to the New York Times, although “Lebanon hands out and renews hundreds of thousands of work permits every year to people from Africa, Asia and other Arab countries… until now, only a handful have been given” to Palestinians.[4] They labor under legal restrictions that bar them from employment in at least 39 professions, “including law, medicine, and engineering,” a system that relegates them to the black market for labor. According to the 2017 census conducted by the Lebanese government, more than 90% of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are informally employed.In 2016, Lebanese authorities began constructing a concrete wall with watch towers around the Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp, the largest Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon.[21] The wall has faced some criticism, being called “racist” by some and supposedly labeling residents as terrorists or islamists.[22] As of May 2017, the wall construction was nearing completion.[23][24] For travel abroad non-citizen Palestinian residents of Lebanon can obtain travel documents that serve in place of passports.[25] Travellers who hold only a Palestinian passport are refused entry to Lebanon.[26]

Now there is some home cooking apartheid. And I could go Arab Muslim country by country. Horrifying treatment of the Palestinians. Where is your outrage? Where is your support for Palestinians that are not oppressed by Jews? Jews have a good reason to be leary of Palestinians. INTRANSIGENCE. From the get go. Never compromising unlike the Jews. Kill the Jews. Give us all of the land. Same shit different day, different year, different decade. It all stems from a mind virus. Same mind virus that feeds the left wing BS that you sign on to but i know damn well you are smarter than to buy into intellectually.

It is shameful and despicable first the abandonment of the Jews and now the singling out of the Jews in a world replete with wanton cruelty, dicatatorships, and theocracies. Just little tiny postage stamp Israel that finally affords a truly persecuted people a home and yet are still under attack. Physical existential attacks and endless libel and slander. Tell those lies often enough and morons will believe them. No, Jews are not perfect. Their government is not perfect. The calumniation however is perfectly absurd albeit consistent with the scapegoating that will go on until the final solution is upon us.

[_Robert_Participant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Robert, The jist of what you are saying about Israel is absolutely correct, although you did make the common mistake of assuming that Nelson Mandela was a peaceful protester against South African Apartheid. Amnesty International did not consider him a “Prisoner of Conscience” for that reason. Nelson Mandela also evidently just stood by while his wife Winnie called for and presided over “necklacing” of other South Africans who opposed the African National Congress. A gruesome practice this “necklacing.” The Mandelas also sympathized with the PLO, so they really are something that does not belong in a conversation on Middle East peace.

Sure, there are always radicals on either side but look at the overarching will of Mandella versus the death cult, Hamas. There is no fair comparison. Besides, Nelson was in prison for nearly three decades and maintained his quest for peaceful change all that time.

If he sympathized with the PLO maybe it was because in 1993 the Israeli government and the PLO agreed on a plan to implement a two-state solution as part of the Oslo Accords. Hard to imagine the PLO as a rational bunch until you look at Hamas.

The possible solutions are still (a) complete eradication/genocide by one side or the other (b) two states.

Controlling your radicals is the key to the two-state solution and ironically it is much easier for dictators to do that than free societies. There will be so many attempts by bad actors on either side to crush a two-state solution. You can’t sign a piece of paper and think “that’s it”. They have to look at it as a decades long process and crack down on their own radicals while expecting violence from radicals on the other side.

Perhaps an international peace-keeping force could help if a deal can be made, IDK. Almost the entire world (less Iran, Yemen, Russia) would be there to help to get this shit over with. However, these people are ideologs who are so tied to their ancient myths so it will take decades of de-programming and there will be many, many setbacks. Iran has become the true protagonist. The US has to get with them and work something out as Trump fucked that up big time.

 

 

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