The plus side of the establishment of Israel…

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Jake

As I explained, I don’t hate Jews, I would have married a Jew, I have no qualms at using Jewish doctors or shopping at businesses owned by Jewish people. I don’t view them as money-grubbers or bankers or as running the world.

I don’t check any bigot boxes.

While I think the creation of Israel cascaded into a lot of the problems threatening the safety and security of the entirre world, I realize that we  can’t unring that bell. I do oppose the policies and practices of the Israeli state, which have a lot of commonalities with apartheid South Africa.

I don’t even want Israel to stop going after Hamas. I do think they pay too little regard to preserving the lives of Palestinians. I think they just don’t value the life of a Palestinian to be worth taking into account.

I also have to wonder how they can democratically remain a Jewish state with a Palestinian population that will someday be the majority.

That’s the sum of it.

You’ve blown it up into portraying me as, basically a Nazi. The last ditch tactic of someone on the losing end of an argument.

• This reply was modified 1 year ago by  Unseen.

[jakelafortParticipant]

“You’ve blown it up into portraying me as, basically a Nazi. The last ditch tactic of someone on the losing end of an argument.”

No i have boxed you into a corner. Are you a left wing ideologue or an antisemite? You were supporting Russia and you’ve exhibited skepticism in other areas so you are not the former. There is a 3rd possibility, an escape valve if you will. You are being disingenuous in an effort to stir the pot and create controversy. You’ve copped to that on a few occasions. You like controversy and polemics. You will be devil’s advocate and assume positions you know are flawed. Thus i asked you whether it has influenced, colored your thinking to be immersed in the far left ideology? Can Goebels’ discovery about repeating lies be extended to adopting positions that you did not initially hold but defend vigorously?

“I do oppose the policies and practices of the Israeli state, which have a lot of commonalities with apartheid South Africa.”

Such horse shit. Lebanon on the other hand practices apartheid against the Palestinians. It is blatant. Palestinians are fucked up the wazoo all over the middle east by fellow Arab Muslims. Locked up. In refugee camps. Denied citizenship. Denied property rights. Denied entry. Gunned down when they’ve protested etc.

Ya know the scapegoating of Jews, the historical distortions and lies, the attribution of western sins projected onto Jews is antisemitism. The denial of their right to a state is antisemitism. The insane hyperfocus and double/higher standards is antisemitsm. But equally or more important the hyperfocus by the far left on Israel as the great villain so that the conflict with the Palestinians becomes a morality play in consequence of which humanitarian crises the world over are ignored. It is a great time to be a despot, to commit actual genocide to be in the distinguished history of gut wrenching horror shows.

Given how easily people are manipulated the left could have become the champions of ameliorating our civilization. The masses would as easily identify with good causes to the betterment of all. Instead they have furthered the march of folly. And the mind virus of Jew hatred continues in that march.

[_Robert_Participant]

Yeah Jake,

“Left & Right” have lost all meaning in this world of smart phone likes and dislikes. A world of memes and 280-character limits. A world of targeted AI feeds. A world of right-wing Putin advocates and left-wing Hamas supporters. A world where feminists are fighting with trans activists and presidential candidates are hawking bibles while charged with crimes. A world where conspiracy nut jobs, anti-vaxxers, bit coin bros, white nationalists and climate change deniers can find each other, unite and increase this plague of mass stupidity that is upon us.

 

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Ya know the scapegoating of Jews, the historical distortions and lies, the attribution of western sins projected onto Jews is antisemitism. The denial of their right to a state is antisemitism. The insane hyperfocus and double/higher standards is antisemitsm. But equally or more important the hyperfocus by the far left on Israel as the great villain so that the conflict with the Palestinians becomes a morality play in consequence of which humanitarian crises the world over are ignored. It is a great time to be a despot, to commit actual genocide to be in the distinguished history of gut wrenching horror shows.

I’ve run into this tactic before of using a blizzard of BS to bury me and force to either respond point-by-point or have a life apart from Atheistzone, so I’ll take this paragraph to discuss.

I totally agree that Jews have been scapegoated over the years, but I have not scapegoated Jews. I’ve criticized a state actor, not because it’s a Jewish state, but for its actions in Gaza now and with the Palestinians over the decades.

Now, I disagree that the denial of Jews right to a state is necessarily antisemitism. It is only if the basis is hatred of Jews, but there are other reasons for thinking so. Where do you stand on the right of every other world religion, some of them persecuted at one time or another, to a state of their own. Does Buddhism have a right to a state? Zoroastrianism? Shinto? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Come on!

That said, I don’t think I’ve been on the record on the matter.

I don’t apply a higher or double-standard to Israel. I apply it to what’s going on actively in the news. I can only respond to situations I now about. Here’s some of what I know:

The United Nations has reported that the Gaza Strip is facing a severe humanitarian crisis, with a high risk of famine. The crisis is attributed to the ongoing blockade, siege, airstrikes, and limitation of aid, which has led to a severe shortage of food, medicine, and other essential supplies.

The United Nations has warned that the situation in Gaza is “catastrophic” and that the population is at risk of “imminent famine.” The World Food Programme (WFP) has reported that over 500,000 people in Gaza are at risk of famine, with 92% of them expected to face catastrophic levels of hunger by July. (source: a Brave Browser AI news summarizer)

Israel is treating the entire Gaza population as though they all are Hamas. They are engaging in what amounts to a genocidal holocaust. What’s more humanitarian: to continue and starve many thousands of Gazans to death or to allow them to eat and drink healthy water?

Huh?

 

I agree with your depiction of

[jakelafortParticipant]

Well said Robert.

When a person is hooked by the algorithm driven AI, and media fed appeals to emotion of the left and right, reinforced by others hooked as well the conviction of the duped only grows and seeds further division. It is just endless BS. It does not bode well for our future.

I always saw myself as being more closely associated with left. I was never woke. But i’ve awakened. Both sides i’ve forsakened.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert,

Mandela expressed support of the PLO and Arafat in 1990, long after Arafat had established himself as the practical inventor of air piracy and the butcher of Lebanon. Also, both the ANC and the PLO were supported by the Soviets throughout The Cold War, so there’s all kinds of Venn Diagrams of no-goodnik-ness tainting the otherwise just cause of abolishing Apartheid.

As for Left and Right, they really lost their usefulness as political identifiers after the French Assembly was overtaken by Emperor Napoleon. Robert A. “Papa” Heinlein summed it up for me:

Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.

Color me “surly curmudgeon” and feel free to stop by if you need to borrow a cup of saltpeter.
😁

[UnseenParticipant]

Bernie Sander is a Jew. He’s not a weekly synagogue attendee and is not a practicing Jew in any sense, but he is Jewish en0ugh for most rabid antisimites for being the child of a Polish Jew. So, he is a Jew in the way we refer to both practicing and ethnic Jewish people.

He’s a Jew, and here is his view of whether attacking the practices of Israel under Netanyahu is antisemitism:

Clearly, he doesn’t think that Israel, simply because it is defined as a Jewish state, exempts it from the kind of criticism other states might incur in pursuing similar policies.

Indeed, it’s not as though criticism of Israel’s actions are only levied by outsiders. It’s controversial inside Israel as well where there is a small but vocal contingent of anti-Zionist ultra-orthodox Jews. Can they be antisemitic?

Here a British journalist interviews Jews in order to understand their point-of-view:

• This reply was modified 1 year ago by  Unseen.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Both with his anti-Israel and his pro-Socialist worldviews, Bernie thinks that the alligator will never get to him. Same likewise with the Orthodoxers, Jewish Voice for Peace, “The Squad,” and Queers For Palestine.

They can be masochistic and suicidal if they want, but don’t drag anybody else along for the ride.

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Unseen, Both with his anti-Israel and his pro-Socialist worldviews, Bernie thinks that the alligator will never get to him. Same likewise with the Orthodoxers, Jewish Voice for Peace, “The Squad,” and Queers For Palestine.

They can be masochistic and suicidal if they want, but don’t drag anybody else along for the ride.

Is there an argument in there somewhere?

[_Robert_Participant]

Decades of terrorism and war will create a militant wing in any culture. Israel’s Knesset (passes all laws, elects the president and prime minister) has had over 100 Arab members. How many Jews are there in any Arab government? I looked around for a while. IDK, is it even a thing?

Anyway Unseen, I bet you can even take it…allahu akbar

https://www.october7thattack.com/

 

 

 

[jakelafortParticipant]

Sanders is pandering to his lefty supporters. Whether the Jew hating left ideology has completely wasted his mind i can’t say. There are Jews for Jesus too. Obviously in a vacuum criticism of any government is not racist. I note he is using Hamas’ reported figures. Not trustworthy and consistent with lefty BS. Also there is no context given to Israel’s war response. I’d like to know ANY government that would be as concerned for welfare of Palestinian civilians as Israel.

Gazans had a defacto state. Israel forced its citizens out. Gazans got a shit load of financial support. What did they do with it? Elected terrorists who reflected their culture. Jew hatred and never give an inch in the quest to get it ALL. Little boys taught to dream about the glory that will come when they grow up to be Jewslayers. Hamas is the enemy of Israel and from a western perspective (nondeath cult perspective) is the enemy of the Palestinians. The brutal Palestinian attack on Israel was always going to result in a war effort to root out the Islamists. Hamas knew that. Hamas intentionally sacrifices the citizens they represent. It is good propaganda. But Sanders does not put anything in context.

Dershowitz is a Jewish attorney/professor who has represented Nazis. Here is a guy who said if he were 25 would fight in Gaza with the IDF. Dershowitz speaks on the widespread dangers not simply to Israel but to America of the antisemitism propped up by the lefty freaks. What he says makes a lot of sense too.

As to Religious Jews who cares their view on zionism. And no if they oppose Israel it does not make them antisemitic. Religiously motivated only. Everything in context. Like the word nigger. If Black friends say, “you my nigger” it aint racist. If confederate flag bearing, pick up truck driving, Bobby screams out at Blacks…”fucking niggers” that is racist. Lefty mother fuckers who are hyperfocused on the government of Israel (wink wink)and silent otherwise in the cesspool of the middle east with its theocracies and everyday brutality are racists. Oh and of course hofuckingrendous treatment of Palestinians. SILENCE. Religious Jews who oppose the state of Israel are just religious idiots as opposed to antisemites.

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6351933183112

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Sanders is pandering to his lefty supporters. Whether the Jew hating left ideology has completely wasted his mind i can’t say. There are Jews for Jesus too. Obviously in a vacuum criticism of any government is not racist.

The dismissive epithet antisemite (racist) is used by Israeli apologists as a go to classic conversation stopper. If the situations were reversed, Gaza was the Zionist country, and 34,000 Israelis had been killed and the remaining ones were forced to move around the country, being made homeless by having bombs dropped on their dwellings, hospitals destroyed, 400+ medical workers killed… You’d be singing a totally different tune.

[jakelafortParticipant]

How blinded can you be Unseen?

If Gaza had the power instead of Israel it would be an actual genocide. An actual genocide. No humanitarian relief. No announcing to civilians that they must move so that the military operation against their elected terrorist government can continue without jeopardizing their lives. How they would accomplish the delicious task of Jewslaying is a matter of speculation. Continue in the way Hamas has? Nazi like camps?

Their nationalism (Zionism) is far more fervent then Jews is/was. Jews in spite of a world hungering or indifferent to their annihilation and desperately in need of a home yet compromised with the Arabs/Palestinians. Palestinians a people of recent origin (earliest i have read is late 19th century) competing for land and understandably autonomy have been beyond intransigent. Again from our western perspective so perverse that jew killing and taking all of the holy land is paramount literally trumping life in all other regards. For mothers to be pleased to sacrifice their boys is an indication of just how sick and demented they are culturally. And again zionism is primarily a secular movement. It is about Jewish survival. And the zionist writers were quite accurate in recognizing the never ending threat to Jews. The holocaust has not quelled shit. And the despicable far left has jumped on board. There is a huge story waiting to be fully exposed as to the Jew hating propagandist infiltrating our universities.

And again you are using the Hamas figures. Good for you always suspending your thinking in your views on Israel. And i can’t imagine another more powerful nation that is constantly under threat being more careful about not killing Palestinians. The word you are looking for is Islamophobia as a speech stopper when assessing Islam. Antisemitism is a tried and true mind virus. And when the analysis is 100 percent Hamas and Palestinians without any nuance it is antisemitism or at best utter ignorance. There is no moral equivalence between the two.

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

If Gaza had the power instead of Israel it would be an actual genocide. An actual genocide.

It’s actually being called out by reputable sources as a genocide. An actual genocide.

People trapped in Gaza largely lack shelter, sufficient supplies of food, and potable water. As a consequence, malnutrition and communicable diseases are raging. Reputable NGO’s are already declaring a famine there.

To make matters more distressing, Israel isn’t clear on its endgame. What is its goal? Is it a reasonable, attainable goal? It certainly appears to be little more than making Gaza totally unlivable (“bombing ’em back to the Stone Age”?) with as few Gazans left as possible. And, of course, the remaining ones will be fertile ground for radical Muslim recruiters looking for crazy-angry young men ready to strap on a boom-boom or fly a paraglider with an AK-47  and a sack full of grenades on their back.

Do you have any idea how Israel thinks this will end?

• This reply was modified 1 year ago by  Unseen.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Unseen,

Learn something.

Or continue to spout lies and tow the party line of ideological warfare against Jews.

https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/366-urban-warfare-2-0

[Author]

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