WAKE UP WOKE PEOPLE!

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This topic contains 103 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Autumn 18 hours, 19 minutes ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 104 total)
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  • #46626

    Unseen
    Participant

    @Enco

    BTW, you  continue to ignore my basic concern which isn’t about whether organs should be market forces. My concern is about whether their use should be medically rational and maybe economically nonsensical or economically rational and maybe medically nonsenssical.

    Let’s do this backwards. There is an organ, who should get it and why?

    #46627

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Obviously, the best candidate list starts and ends like this: Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, ……………and finally a homeless wino.

    No, it’s the patient with the direst need, yet who has a promising outcome in terms of expected lifespan.

    #46628

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    PopeBeannie,

    The long game best way to benefit future Veterans is to assure that our defense is strong enough that the world’s rogues would never fling so much as a Minié Ball in our direction and to assure that no Government would send our Armed Forces into a war while hamstringing our ability to win, such as Congress and Rob McNamara did to the over 58,000 dead and the over 300,000 physically and mentally mangled Veterans of the War in Southeast Asia.

    As for the Veterans we have now, the last place I would refer to any of them is any place that takes Section 8 or is rent controlled. Our Veterans deserve much better, such as affordable, new construction available immediately, rather than old, crumbling structures that people queue up for years to get (another downside to anything priced below market rates, such as is done by Section 8 subsidy and forcibly done by rent control.)

    And most Veterans I meet in my store lines are not happy with VA care, both on grounds of quality and on the grounds of wait time.

    A better option would be for the Government to recompense Veterans with the equivalent of a replenishable medical gift card which Veterans could use at any medical facility or pharmacy rather than corralling Veterans to a limited number of VA facilities. (By the bye, such a gift card benefit is fully Constitutional, since it is given “in consideration for public service.”) This, plus greater availability and lower prices of a free marketplace in health care, would be a much-needed boon to Veterans.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendums
    #46630

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    No, it is not but it is a very good one line summary.

    Albeit not an accurate summary.

    #46631

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    If being a slave to price and distribution control of organs strips doctors of their rights and turns them into slaves, then so does having to function in a fierce competition with other doctors.

    So, by this definition, wouldn’t all forms of labor be slavery, even if the laborers embrace competition voluntarily and even with gusto? That sounds more like a personal problem than an economic one.

    It also makes trivia out of the experience of the untold millions who have ever endured actual coerced labor at the hands of either a chattel owner or a government.

    But what is the goal of the health care system in your world. I gather it it’s to enrich doctors and not too humanely provide lifesaving care to people who need it as rationally as possible.

    The goal of health care should be that of any other joint human endeavor: Trade. Voluntary mutual exchange to voluntary mutual benefit.

    #46632

    Unseen
    Participant

    The goal of health care should be that of any other joint human endeavor: Trade. Voluntary mutual exchange to voluntary mutual benefit.

    So, analyze the situation with the teenage boy, the 30 y/o widowed mother-of-three, and the elderly attorney as to which one deserves to receive the life-saving organ.

    #46633

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator
    Enco thank you, every point you’ve made here is clear, even if my experience with the system still differs from your perceptions.

    The long game best way to benefit future Veterans is to assure that our defense is strong enough that the world’s rogues would never fling so much as a Minié Ball in our direction and to assure that no Government would send our Armed Forces into a war while hamstringing our ability to win, such as Congress and Rob McNamara did to the over 58,000 dead and the over 300,000 physically and mentally mangled Veterans of the War in Southeast Asia.

    Good, unarguable examples of USA policy failures and harm imposed on our own, young people and other countries’.

    As for the Veterans we have now, the last place I would refer to any of them is any place that takes Section 8 or is rent controlled. Our Veterans deserve much better, such as affordable, new construction available immediately, rather than old, crumbling structures that people queue up for years to get (another downside to anything priced below market rates, such as is done by Section 8 subsidy and forcibly done by rent control.)

    I’m actually seeing a huge spurt of new housing construction in my area that I’ve not seen in decades, which should bode well for everyone in the low income system and other people looking for more affordable housing, where it’s normally much more costly here (on the west coast) than in other areas of the country. Personally, as I’ve mentioned before, as a vet I only had to wait a little over a year for my own voucher, and that time waiting was spent in an extremely positive environment with other vets who also found success, which would not been possible without interfaith charities and the VA working together. It has been successful for years, and not just in my local area.

    So I’ll say again, I know for sure that you’re not meeting enough vets (perhaps only in your area?) to grasp the whole picture, while I won’t argue that other people experience system failure, albeit especially non-vets. And all of my state is famously/infamously under rent control, limiting yearly rent increases to 10%. And yet the market for apartment buyers is robust even as costs increase. In my area, the owners still keep upgrading the quality of their apartments. You’re just not seeing the whole picture, man.

    And most Veterans I meet in my store lines are not happy with VA care, both on grounds of quality and on the grounds of wait time.

    In the past decade, I’ve never experienced those problems that I do know exist. It seems you and I are competing with anecdotes as evidence, but I’m meeting many more vets than not who are appreciative of VA medical and mental health care. My civilian mental health therapist is paid by the VA system, and I have completely solved two of my three mental health issues, which could not have happened without a decade of VA funding.

    A better option would be for the Government to recompense Veterans with the equivalent of a replenishable medical gift card which Veterans could use at any medical facility or pharmacy rather than corralling Veterans to a limited number of VA facilities. (By the bye, such a gift card benefit is fully Constitutional, since it is given “in consideration for public service.”) This, plus greater availability and lower prices of a free marketplace in health care, would be a much-needed boon to Veterans.

    Well yeah, we could do more for vets, by improving the VA system that already does more for providing health care than non-vets can receive. In fact, I have two VA facilities I can bus to within 45 minutes, and when I’ve needed emergency room treatment at civilian hospitals, the VA has paid for it.

    One other program just for vets that made a huge difference in my life and the lives of other vets I knows is the Obama-era program that paid for homeless vets to get vocational degrees. (I know, I know, just more anecdotes.)

    #46634

    Davis
    Moderator

    The goal of health care should be that of any other joint human endeavor: Trade. Voluntary mutual exchange to voluntary mutual benefit.

    So uhh, under this extreme ideology (and please don’t pretend it is not radical/extreme), a doctor would be totally at liberty to turn away someone who needs emergency surgery if at the same time a patient who is willing to pay a lot more, walks in and out bids them (for whatever reason) to have a nose job done. If sure if under this scenario, you’d be pleased if someone you cared about died while scrambling to find some alternate doctor, not in time.

    Now I can imagine your first reaction is to go “uhh Hipocratic oath” or “doctors would voluntarily have some kind of guild standards” but that flies in the face of the kind of extreme deregulation you are aiming for or the liberty of the market. In fact, I should be able to freely perform surgery on anyone who asks for it. No, I am not just conveniently trying to poke easy holes into your ideology (it is already full of holes). The point is, under any system whatsoever there will always be, under whatever circumstances, imposed limits to this “freedom” of voluntary mutual exchange. You can either have minimal ones which unfairly favour the privileged/lucky or broader ones (within reason) that try to minimally account for all. Fortunately most societies around the world are cutting down on the sociopathic drive to not give a shit about those most in need and provide minimum dignity and respect for all. Freedom and choice is meaningless if you do not have access or the means to get the basics.

    #46635

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Let’s do this backwards. There is an organ, who should get it and why?

    First come, first served. The phones and e-911 service work both ways for both the people in your example and Robert’s example too. And with a market in organs, there’s a whole cryo-bank of more organs behind that one.

    Now, if you’ll excuse us, the Medical Receptionists have calls to take and the Doctors and Nurses have many ORs to prep, “and miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep.”👨‍🔬👩‍🔬👨‍🚀👩‍🚀

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendums
    #46637

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco, what am i chopped liver gone bad? Skirt, skip, dodge that ye may never dislodge your mythology.

    Slavery is not a false premise. It is what happened when the government was not regulating businesses and the market was free. And if anything it used to support free market slavery by protecting ownership of chattel as in Fugitive Slave Act. And were it not for labor fighting for its rights then the power imbalance between business and labor would be as it always was and still is in very poor nations.

    Again the accumulation of too much power inures to the benefit of the powerful and detriment of the have-nots. How do you distinguish business from say governments and churches? History has given us the answer. Never mind silly little Adam Smith economic lessons. Not that he was any dummy! In the early 19th century the economist named Ricardo had a so called IRON LAW OF WAGES-business would pay its laborers only enough to barely get by. He didn’t pull that out of his ass. It was a free market. When the little girl died of phosphorus necrosis in a match factory there was another fungible little girl to take her place. For every Ben and Jerry there are a thousand business leaders who are much closer to Putin. Humans are despicable, mindless and avaricious notwithstanding the outliers. I like what Davis just wrote. “Freedom and choice is meaningless if you do not have access or the means to get the basics.” Spot on! I had other things to convey but fuck it. You aint gonna learn nothin. You iz as invested in your ideology as a fundamentalist is in theirs..

    #46638

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Funny stuff. Ayn Rand, the douche bag’s hero.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8m8cQI4DgM

    #46639

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I am not surprised Cuban loves Ayn. He initially supported Trump. His acuity in business is no assurance of good general intelligence.

    #46640

    Unseen
    Participant

    First come, first served. The phones and e-911 service work both ways for both the people in your example and Robert’s example too. And with a market in organs, there’s a whole cryo-bank of more organs behind that one.

    Mmm…no. It’s not like there can be a warehouse where a heart or kidney or corneas can sit there waiting until it’s bought. Their useful life can be mere hours, but better if only minutes. Seafood is fresh for an eternity by comparison with human organs.

    Your idea is simply stupid. Plus, there’s the problem of blood types, some of them rare.

    Your system comes down to “Who deserves to get an organ? The wealthiest person, of course!”

    #46641

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    Sooo…Tribe’s capturing each other in war? Free Market Capialism.

    Pharoah’s using slaves to build pyramids that weren’t for sale? Free Market Capitalism.

    Aztec, Mayan, and Toltecs using slave’s hearts to appease their Sun God? Free Market Capitalism.

    Conquistadors using slaves to mine Gold and Silver that hyperinflated their economy for 150 years and made Spain and Portugal shells of their former selves? Free Market Capitalism.

    Muslim Corsairs enslaving 1.5 million Europeans because Effendi Prefer Blondes? Free Market Capitalism.

    Man, you treat the words “Free Market Capitalism” like Frank’s Red Hot Sauce and “Put That 🌶 On Everything!”

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling
    #46643

    jakelafort
    Participant

    It is Jake. Jake on the make.

    Caputuring? No. How do you make that connection? Where is the free exchange? Pharaoh’s slaves? Unless purchased, no. Not sure Toltecs had a sun god. Slave’s hearts? That is a religious ritual. Let me stop cuz analyzing these is just silly. Too red to be herrings.

    Slavery in USA was quintessential free market capitalism. Purchased in Africa. For sale in USA. No government interference. Controversy over which states would come in as free to market slaves and which would not. (No doubt those slave merchants could take a look at slaves at the market and know within defined parameters the cost with a quick look see-just like a fish monger might take a look at a mackeral or bangus and know its cost.

    And a nation that went to war over that free market question. And even the so called humanitarian Lincoln did not give a rat’s cock for Blacks. Jefferson with his slaves thought in due course it might change. I am talking about reality-not some silly chimera of a free market libertarian utopia. You lick at the teat of free market capitalism. Take off your blinkers and examine its consequences. What is its nature? What does it do?

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