Wow. Seriously??

Homepage Forums Politics Wow. Seriously??

This topic contains 76 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 77 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #38772

    Unseen
    Participant

    You actually consider it a “credit” to Russia that it suffered so many senseless deaths because of Stalin’s purges of competant Officers and because of his disasterous agricultural and industrial policies that caused his troops to be without food, medicine, and provisions on the battle front???

    You’re misreading me and you’re doing so intentionally because you don’t have a real argument against my point that holds water. I’m giving Russia credit for bringing the war in Europe to an earlier end, not Stalin for his nasty bullshit. You honestly give no credit to the Russian people, many of whom fought the Nazis without wearing a USSR Army uniform.

     

    #38774

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Maybe China should bill the United States for using their formula for gunpowder or India for using their “Arabic” number system.

    It’s not our fault that they didn’t have a system of patents to protect intellectual property which they didn’t place great premium on in the first place. By the way, to keep this all on-topic: Sleepy, Creepy, Crazy, Cranky, Tankie, Corn-Pop, Lunch-Bucket, Basement-Bunker, Shotgun Joe is still screwing up.

    It’s always a luxury to criticize someone when there’s no one else’s performance to compare them with.

    That said, this was always going to be a mess and based on Trump’s handling of just about everything, the mess would be blamed on incompetent generals, the Democrats, the Hispanics and blacks. He’d probably find a way to blame immigrants as well. Either that or he’d be pretending that the evacuation is a wonderful success no matter what the Fake News Press says.

    Just look at how badly the narcissistic asshole bungled the pandemic. The one thing to his credit was whatever he did (and I must say “if anything”) to get vaccines made quickly, and then creating an atmosphere of doubt that plagues the country and keeps 10’s of millions from getting vaccinated.

    Boy, what an asset he was for four years.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #38778

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Not giving Russia credit is just BS. Similarly one side being noble and Russia ignoble is BS. If ya ever read about Stalingrad it is just riveting. Defending life and country under the most adverse conditions and suffering is a form of sacrifice that is hard to top.

    No doubt the USA has a great deal of Zinnful acts to own up to. But it also has a model constitution albeit carved in ways that reflect poorly on its Supremes. USA has also been a haven for many oppressed in Europe and other nations who transformed their lives and the lives of their descendants for the better. But why wouldn’t USA be a bunch of fuck ups since the ruling class is from Europe. Europe’s history is abysmal. For that matter the history of humans is abysmal. Whoever has power oppresses. Painting native Americans as noble or Africans as noble is quixotic. In Africa Blacks have done no better than Europeans in governing and in protecting civil rights.

    Speaking of the Mongol hordes (nice derogatory there but that happens with the dehumanization caused by tribalism especially in war) they were the toughest mofos from here to Timbuktu and even they knew better than to invade Afghanistan. They got to Hungary and would have fought the Teutonic knights if Genghis had not received word to go home. Lucky knights!

    It is a tough tough question how USA should have proceeded in Afghanistan. A permanent presence? I don’t have the answer. I suppose if USA could bring improved economics then improved governments and civil rights would follow. But i maintain that the exit strategy is awful. USA has made atrocious political decisions in its invasions. Just horrible. And when it might have used its mighty military to do good like stopping genocides or even solving its border issues and the lives of people in Central America who are hosed by Cartels it stands by idly. Oh well. It will all come out in the wash.

    #38779

    Unseen
    Participant

    USA has also been a haven for many oppressed in Europe and other nations who transformed their lives and the lives of their descendants for the better.

    The postwar immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe and the refugees from Cuba have played an incalculable role in America’s attitudes towards socialism, even though they were running from Communist states because Communist states call themselves socialist, many Americans equate Communism and socialism. It’s an ignorant view, but common.

    Why are our views so formed by those fleeing Communist states? The answer should be obvious: We don’t get refugees from successful socialistic states with largely happy publics. People from Scandinavia, France, Spain, Italy, or the UK are not lining up to become US citizens. I’m 74 and I’ve never met even a visitor from any of those countries save Italy. I knew a grad student whose fiancée was Italian.

    The conservative movement keeps alive this insupportable notion that socialism inevitably leads to murderous failed states.

    #38780

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, that is a pretty good point.

    I knew a family from Norway. They moved back!

    #38781

    Davis
    Moderator

    Oh God does Europe ever have a horrific history. Colonialism…uffff! WWII was only 70 years ago. The Yugoslavian ugliness was only a couple decades ago. Russia has annexed Crimea and Belarus is still a dictatorship.

    some countries around the world have copied admirable ideas from the United States including the idea that a supreme court defends a constitution. It also contributed to the evolution of economic institutions (political and private), technological and artistic innovations that were revolutionary.

    Having said that on the democracy front a LOT of countries definitely beat the US to a lot of things along the way including proper representative democracy (universal suffrage), freedom of ALL citizens, a long list of rights and things the US hasn’t even implemented yet. The US certainly did not invent democracy (it existed for centuries in the Venitian Republic and Iceland not to mention proto-versions in the Roman Republic and Greek states. And I would also argue that the US could have just as well have gotten what it wanted without terrorism against the British and a violent revolution (considering multiple British Colonies achieved independence and democracy through completely peaceful means).

    But yes, characterising the US as always a valiant good force is ridiculous and ignoring and not teaching the mountain of bad is a stupid thing to do. Other countries are struggling with their awful past…all countries should.

    Conversely characterising the US as a stained force of evil in the world and ignoring its MANY contributions to the Western world some of us within it are privileged to enjoy would be equally stupid. American’s are right to note their accomplishments, but people around the world utterly roll their eyes at the hyperbole and myths and are rightly pissed off when some of this mythical or half-true claims unjustly denigrate others.

    Countries go to war when it serves their interests, they do terrible things during those wars and not a single nation is innocent of any of this and citizens should own up to this.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #38784

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    From 1979 to 1990, Israel managed to get the overwhelming majority of the Falashas (155,300 African Jews, said by some to be decendents from King Solomon,) out of certain death in Ethiopia and Sudan.  The Israelis rescued 8000 Falashas in a single swoop in Operstion Moses in 1984-1985 (albeit, with some deaths in transit.)

    Couldn’t a wealthier, more well-armed nation such as the U.S. have done the same with a smaller number of people in the years following the death of Bin Laden?   Couldn’t Obama, Trump, or Biden have done this well?  Couldn’t Bush have done the same if we destroyed Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and got the Hell out right away?

    This whole mess in Kabul is what’s called failing to plan and planning to fail and not one of those Mad King Ludwig Presidents deserves an apple-polishing pass.

    #38785

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    You’re misreading me and you’re doing so intentionally because you don’t have a real argument against my point that holds water. I’m giving Russia credit for bringing the war in Europe to an earlier end, not Stalin for his nasty bullshit. You honestly give no credit to the Russian people, many of whom fought the Nazis without wearing a USSR Army uniform.

    One small problem with that: Stalin didn’t trust Russian Citizens with either ideas or guns.  Any Russian who did resist the Nazis out of uniform was a Partizan, not a cog of Mother Russia and the Party.

     

    #38789

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    Not giving Russia credit is just BS. Similarly one side being noble and Russia ignoble is BS. If ya ever read about Stalingrad it is just riveting. Defending life and country under the most adverse conditions and suffering is a form of sacrifice that is hard to top.

    General George S. Patton rightly observed that: ” The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other dumb bastard die for his.”

    The Russians did far more dying than killing, and did it all for the very Stalin who stoked the Nazi war machine that attacked them, the very Stalin who enforced the very policies that brought Russians privation, starvation, disease, and death. So by Patton’s measure, Russia missed the mark by a long shot.

    Mourn the Russians? Yes. Honor them? Only if they defied their zeitgeist and opposed both of the war-making tyrannies they faced.

    No doubt the USA has a great deal of Zinnful acts to own up to.

    I see what you did there. Howard Zinn’s work belongs as a prop for a wobbly table leg holding all the cut-out books in the Dollar Store. Right there next to Francis Fukayama’s The End of History. With hope, Robin DiAngelo’s and Ibram Kendi’s books will most likely be next.

    But why wouldn’t USA be a bunch of fuck ups since the ruling class is from Europe. Europe’s history is abysmal. For that matter the history of humans is abysmal. Whoever has power oppresses. Painting native Americans as noble or Africans as noble is quixotic. In Africa Blacks have done no better than Europeans in governing and in protecting civil rights.

    Every nation has their historical shit deal, but Howard Zinn and so-called “historians” like him rake all the compost in one space rather than in all the spots where it belongs.

    Speaking of the Mongol hordes (nice derogatory there but that happens with the dehumanization caused by tribalism especially in war) they were the toughest mofos from here to Timbuktu and even they knew better than to invade Afghanistan. They got to Hungary and would have fought the Teutonic knights if Genghis had not received word to go home. Lucky knights.

    One division of the Mongol Empire called themselves The Khanate of The Golden Horde. Unless that’s Mongolian for the “N-word,” I think you did all right.

    The main advantages the Mongols had was that they used the horse for both war transport and nourishment. The typical Mongol warrior had several horses. He would use one for milk and slowly bleed and cap off one for food while on the steppes. Yummy. /sarcasm

    Also, the Mongols made clever use of psy-war. They carried three torches so that, when others observed them at night, the already large army appeared even bigger.

    None of this is pleasant study, of course, but you have to study war to win it and better yet to avoid it entirely.

    We don’t entirely disagree.  Our Armed Forces are better used to protect our own borders and shores and only outside of that as a counter-attack to those who attack us.

    As for genocides and the Cartels, we can take in refugees and be the better example to the world and render the Cartels’ crops useless by growing our own.  Beyond that, the effort is on the rest of the world too.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Highlighting quotes
    #38794

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco, it is kind of pointless for me to respond. So much of what you write lacks relevance. At least you know some shit but i am reminded of a bad gambler. More information creates more and more confusion.

    #38795

    Davis
    Moderator

    Indeed Jake. Enco, your drive to write a narrative that hypersimplifies things that supports your own world view and makes your own homeland seem valiant while disparaging others is incredible. You criticise Russians for blindly supporting their leader who makes questionable war time decisions while ignoring the fact that Americans overwhelmingly supported Bush’s extremely immoral aggression in Iraq.

    Worse, you criticise the Russian government for appeasing Germany and fighting in a war simply because they were invaded and wanted to maintain their political system…WHILE YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT appeased Germany and ignored the horrors of WWII until it started inconveniencing your economy and the Germans became too aggressive (while your neighbour Canada declared war shortly after it started and participated throughout).

    Consider aiming your efforts at questioning your own hyper simplified world view and questioning semi-mythical narratives. If the rest of the developed world presents history in a more nuanced way and most American text books tell an extremely favourable American version of history…it might be a good idea to re-evaluate things.

    #38805

    Ivy
    Participant

    Where I think Biden went wrong is that I think he should have changed the timeline, and I don’t think he should have followed through on things the way Trump wanted to do it. I don’t think anything that Trump did with a few exceptions were positive or smart. And I don’t really care about what the previous administrations have done or not done. All of that is in the past. It doesn’t honestly even matter anymore. What matters is that it’s Joe Biden‘s watch right now. He is in charge. He is the one that made the decisions, and he made the wrong decision to do what he did the way that he did it. It was sloppy. Poorly thought out, and in my opinion completely irresponsible. I’m not suggesting that we should’ve stayed in Afghanistan until the end of eternity, however I don’t think he did this shit right. And I think that it is his fault. I don’t really think it’s anybody else’s fault. Not even Donald Trump because he’s not in office anymore. I think Joe Biden did this wrong and it’s pretty sickening to watch. That’s just my opinion for what it’s worth and it continues to be that way every single day I watch the news.

    #38806

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I feel as Sam Harris does. Not sure what right move is in Afghanistan but the way things were done is just awful.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=frank+pepe&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil7s274c3yAhVHFFkFHR8eChAQ_AUoA3oECAIQBQ&biw=1832&bih=1009

    #38807

    jakelafort
    Participant

    If you are ever in Connecticut that is good pizza but not the intended link.

    #38808

    _Robert_
    Participant

    An Afghani who kneels to pray 3 times a day has more in common with the Taliban than he or she does with Sam Harris or his guest, (who seems to believe the US should police the world.) If they didn’t fight hard for it, they don’t really want it. They want to fuck their 13 year old girls, just like Mo-ham-mid.

    Will the Taliban kill half a million Americans? No. This is a fucking sideshow and I am all out of fucks to give. The longer we stay, the more Jihadists we raise. The more Muslims we arm and train, the more we will have to fight. Why is this so hard to learn?

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 77 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.