You won't find God in the dictionary.

[_Robert_Participant]

@popebeanie

The idea that higher power spiritual force or forces pervade the whole universe does not require a big leap to accept…

Exactly, we probably know less than 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % of what we could know about the real universe, yet all these measly 200 thousand earth year evolved apes are walking around saying they KNOW exactly how it is based on a baby book. They are not even smart enough to know how simply stupid we are.

[Belle RoseParticipant]

@jakelafort

We all know science is a way to learn about the natural world-best tool we have.

It is the best we have. Unfortunately it too is riddled with politics. There are so many things that should be studied that aren’t being studied just because there’s no funding for it…

Religion is a way to preserve lies and entrench power.

Religion has simply been used as a weapon. It’s really separate from being able to look at the world objectively and see things for what they really are. I have seen too many times people make the case that religion is to blame for the world’s atrocities. That to me as close minded thinking, not based in reality, but fueled by a personal agenda based in the same kind of hate That is claimed to be caused by religion.

Its MO requires the believer to STFU and take it on authority.

There are actually Bible verses that say the exact opposite of that

• This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by  PopeBeanie. Reason: bq fix

[jakelafortParticipant]

Yeah Ivy,

Science is conducted by humans. Consequently it is lacking in purity.  Politics, money, human conceit have a role in its reduced form.

I am one of those anti-theists you see as being as bad as theists.  I am not sure how you can look at history and fail to appreciate religion as a substantial cause of atrocities,  discrimination, hatred, ignorance…etc. The idea that there is a misuse or degradation of a tool to guide human action and behavior is nonsensical.  The bible bears little to no relationship to the original.  It has been changed thousands of times. Not that it would matter if it were the original faithfully memorialized for future generations. What is it? It is a codification of an unjust hierarchy. It is based on mythology that is patently false. It would be wonderful if we had a full on defenestration of religion. Dream on… Don’t we as a species deserve a chance to fuck things up on our own?

I do agree that humans regardless of political party, religious or atheist, black or white, (fill in the blank) tend to be monkeys in adopting the party line…never really examining the ideas that are bandied about…cocksure in their ideas and beliefs.

[Belle RoseParticipant]

Science is conducted by humans. Consequently it is lacking in purity.  Politics, money, human conceit have a role in its reduced form.

The same can be said for religion

 I am not sure how you can look at history and fail to appreciate religion as a substantial cause of atrocities,  discrimination, hatred, ignorance…etc.

Humans have committed horrible atrocities, discrimination, ignorance, etc, since the dawn of our existence. Religion isn’t the “cause” of it. People may use it as an EXCUSE, but that’s not the same thing. Remember: PEOPLE wrote the holy books that are used to hurt others. The injustice existed WAY before organized religion.

 

The idea that there is a misuse or degradation of a tool to guide human action and behavior is nonsensical.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that statement.

Science is conducted by humans. Consequently it is lacking in purity.  Politics, money, human conceit have a role in its reduced form.

I am one of those anti-theists you see as being as bad as theists.  I am not sure how you can look at history and fail to appreciate religion as a substantial cause of atrocities,  discrimination, hatred, ignorance…etc. The idea that there is a misuse or degradation of a tool to guide human action and behavior is nonsensical.  The bible bears little to no relationship to the original.  It has been changed thousands of times. Not that it would matter if it were the original faithfully memorialized for future generations. What is it? It is a codification of an unjust hierarchy. It is based on mythology that is patently false. It would be wonderful if we had a full on defenestration of religion. Dream on… Don’t we as a species deserve a chance to fuck things up on our own?

We would regardless with or without religion.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

I think there are special unique ways that organised religion can cause harm, in ways that just “believing in God” does not.  Mainly, this is where religious norms override human decency – or “new”, large-group morality clashes with “old”, small-group morality.  Jesus’ morality was of the second kind.

I’ve said it before, but Jesus’ teachings weren’t false, in large part.  It took a genius to come out with a lot of what he is reported to have said, so either they were the work of Jesus, or some author who was a genius.  The screwy parts haven’t made it into the general culture.  The worst lack in Jesus’ teaching is “standing up for yourself”, which has left Christians rather passive-aggressive in my experience, at least in the UK.  They’re terrible at criticising people effectively, and don’t know how to do it very well.

[DavisModerator]

Then why do you ask for evidence about a piece of literature instead of seeing it for what it really is?

Because a large number of Christians use cherry picked portions of the bible to justify opressive conservative laws and policies (as well as casual biggotry). It’s not just the fundies who do this. In a country like Croatia which has very little to no fundamentalists/evangelicals…they had just been admitted to the EU. Getting into the EU means making substantial reforms to social policies and laws and introducing VERY rigorous mechanisms to protect human rights. It means adopting the philosophy of inclusivity and respect. The EU has a clear policy on LGTB discrimination. It does not on the marriage issue (as EU policy only happens when everyone agrees and Poland for example is a fairly Christian conservative homophobic country that only grudgingly accepts the tollerance laws). So in a way of celebration for joining the EU, Croatia had a referendum on gay marriage, it would have been the first post-communist country to do so. It was an assumed guarantee. Nope. Voted down. The reason given in exit polls (almost always): bible and the church. Of course, there’s no doubt in mind some of them couldn’t give a shit about the bible and are just totally grossed out by gay love but aren’t going to say that during a survey. I actually respect people who simply say “it grosses me out”. Despite hating that argument (it’s a terrible one) at least they are being authentic, honest, sincere. But to choose a verse from the Bible, claim “that part isn’t just a story, it’s not figurative, it is God’s law” and use that as a justification to outright discriminate against fellow citizens (for no other logical reason) is part of the poison of religion, stemming from an ancient book. Now those verses about telling women to shut up in Church? Meh…that’s just a story. Why? Cause we don’t like that rule. The part in the old testament that forbids eating pork? Nah…the old testament is old news. Then what about the ten commandments in the old testament are they old news? Nah…they are universal.

This is the kind of chaotic meaningless bullshit that seeps out of the bible and poisons people. Verses are subjectively selected, declared “gods words” (as opposed to figurative/fable/story/metaphorical) and used as justification to oppress non believers. And it happened in a fairly liberal European country that has a pretty strong Roman Catholic presense, that just joined the EU under the guise of respecting others. They just respected up to what they were obliged to and used a cherry picked portion of the bible, suddenly made absolute (ignoring other parts) and made it so my gay friends in Croatia cannot marry a man. Meanwhile in Spain I have that right, yet there are still Bishops and Cardinals here and there who spit in our faces that “we are destroying families and should not be allowed that right” and in Russia fags are being systematically beaten up by religious alpha-males and they are simply being murdered or executed in other parts of the God believing world. Why? Cause portions of their holy book are suddenly real.

I see the bible for the bullshit it is. People voting on rules that affect my life don’t. That’s why this isn’t simply a zero sum game. Even in liberal non-religious-insane parts of Europe. That’s why Ivy. I see the book for the literarary nonsense it is. You seem extremely ignorant to the fact that many believers don’t and despite it being a personal belief…still won’t leave us alone and let us live our lives.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by  Davis.

[DavisModerator]

They are not even smart enough to know how simply stupid we are.

This is a major poison of religion. The inability (on really important things) to say “I don’t know”. But instead have infantile answers that are difficult or impossible to change. And it is not limited to religion but also spirituality. People with the obsession to find a guide to life, rules on how to live and a systematic explanation of the world when it is equally possible to simply say, on major portions of the world and how to live: “I don’t know”. It’s extremely healthy both intellectually and psychologically to say “I don’t know. Let’s try and find out”. Not get the answer, create a theory and live by it. But reserve judgement while trying to find out. Religion and most “spirituality” makes this very difficult. There are of couse some spiritual philosophies that embrace the “unknown” but so often it is done in a very superficial way. And there are still very dogmatic or rationally unjustified axioms or assumptions. It’s really okay to not know, and quite possibly never know.

Science and critical thinking depend on “I don’t know”. Knowledge deniers use the gaps in knowledge that science hasn’t figured out (yet or possibly never) to attack the science themselves, as in it is a critical failure because there is stuff they don’t know. Such poison.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by  Davis.

[DavisModerator]

The injustice existed WAY before organized religion.

And yet secular humanist societies have been remarkably successful at limiting these horrors. You think it is just a coincidence that as the christian churches started losing their power and control and society secularized and adopted humanist principles that human rights never seen in the history of the world before and an unequalled level of peace emerged? And that this only happened in secular humanist countries? And that the more secular and humanist they are the more human rights and peace and justice they enjoy (as well as prosperity)? Removing the poison of religion and adopting principles to remove the poison of human behavriour (humanism) has brought, for the first time in the worlds history, a level of social success. Of course there’s a long way to go. But you yourself enjoy it. It’s shocking how ignorant you are of the role the decline in religion played in making your rights possible. You should be VERY thankful for secularization and the withdrawl of religious poison (and adoption of humanist principles).

[jakelafortParticipant]

Ivy,  while those same factors i mentioned,  money, politics and human conceit have a role in science as in religion, i argue vigorously that religion is not  corrupted in the same way that science is corrupted.  I suppose in their absence there might be fewer instances of sexual misconduct, evangelist who will save your soul for a tenner and a stricter adherence to ritual..idk. But religion is an inferior and corrupt way to operate a culture.

It has shown itself to grab a stranglehold over every aspect of life. Where it has power it has controlled every aspect of life.  It has punished those who oppose it with harsh forms of castigation, torture and execution.  It has made the lives of women and homosexuals unbearable and done so as though it were the moral way to conduct affairs. It has contributed to racism.  It has created a mindset in which Europeans and Americans felt justified in raping native peoples, enslaving native peoples,  controlling native peoples, exploiting native peoples. Even theological minutia has repeatedly been the primary cause of wars. It wants to freeze time and prevent the advance of civilization. It is based on outright lies. It claims to have all of the answers even though it does not know jack shit! It claims to have a monopoly on morality even though it promotes the worst possible human conditions.

In short it belongs in the dust bin of history.  On other hand, science admits that we as a species are in awe and humble and will assume the universe will only reveal itself through observation and experiment so we will have to adopt empiricism as a guide.  Conversely,  religion operates on authority and requires adherents to STFU and accept the dogma.

Your main point that we are no worse off with religion because humans are assholes is addressed by Davis.  And while i concede that their is an element of truth to your assertion you miss the point.  We are far far worse off with religion.  I extend the ignominy to political ideology. Thus, nazis and communists are/were essentially religious.  I wont develop this point here.

Examine the contrast between life in Saudi Arabia or some other strong islamic country with life in Canada, Norway or some other country in which secularism dominates.  The quality of life in the secular nation is far better.  Human rights exist! Women and homosexuals can live their lives without feeling inferior, persecuted or subordinate.

 

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Theists, especially the ones we view as Biblical literalists have the ability to interpret their books to demonstrate how compatible their scriptures are with Science. For instance they claim that the Bible always stated that the world was round by mistranslating ancient Hebrew or that Moses understand germ theory and the reasons for using quarantine facilities. But it is impossible of any intellectually honest scientist to find religion and science compatible with each other.

Science, then, commands our respect, not on the basis that its present assumptions and deductions are absolutely and for all time true, but on the ground that its method is for all time true—the method of discovery, the method of observation, research, experimentation, comparison, examination, testing, analysis and synthesis.

Maynard Shipley, the War on Modern Science, 1927.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

In 1870, just about ten years after the publication of Darwin’s book, the “Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Faith,” the Church stated, “But never can reason be rendered capable of thoroughly understanding mysteries as it does those truths which form its proper subject. We, therefore, pronounce false every assertion which is contrary to the enlightened truth of faith…. Hence, all the Christian faithful are not only forbidden to defend as legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, especially when condemned by the Church, but are rather absolutely bound to hold them for errors wearing the deceitful appearance of truth. Let him be anathema….”

“Who shall say that human sciences ought to be pursued in such a spirit of freedom that one may be allowed to hold true their assertions even when opposed to revealed doctrine.”

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Here is that link to the article about the Bible again.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

the article about the Bible again.

several books of the New Testament, including some attributed to Paul, are now considered forgeries perpetrated by famous figures in Christianity to bolster their theological arguments.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the very patriarchal and narrowly presriptive sexual pronouncements of St Paul fall into this category.  They don’t sound like the words of Jesus at all, he seems to have taken a very relaxed approach in the other direction.

[DavisModerator]

They don’t sound like the words of Jesus at all, he seems to have taken a very relaxed approach in the other direction.

We don’t know what Jesus actually said. We have multiple conflicting accounts of a purported person saying various things. Christianity is St. Paulism. It is his interpretation of Jesus’s life and saying and his ritualization and creation of stringent rules and austere conditions on how to live a life. Jesus’s so call words? We don’t know what they are and they are virtually irrelevant compared to what Paul did with them and the Catholic church that followed.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

the article about the Bible again. several books of the New Testament, including some attributed to Paul, are now considered forgeries perpetrated by famous figures in Christianity to bolster their theological arguments.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the very patriarchal and narrowly presriptive sexual pronouncements of St Paul fall into this category. They don’t sound like the words of Jesus at all, he seems to have taken a very relaxed approach in the other direction.

Most scholars think that Paul was dead before the gospels were manufactured, around 65 AD. Paul “wrote” very little about Jesus the human being. I find it very odd that as time goes on we start getting more and more detail on the earthly life of Jesus.

It is ridiculous how the cast of characters around Jesus all play their parts perfectly. Like the traitor Judas, who still doubts after witnessing like 50 miracles. He ID’s Jesus by kissing him, that’s so Mafia. Like the good thief (depicted on the right, of course) to whom Jesus says “Amen I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise”. Of course the other guy, he’s not onboard.

In one very stupid verse, Jesus was made to feel unwelcome and “When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” Jesus says no.

Well the bothers James and John are literally referred to as the “Sons of Thunder” by Jesus. I mean are these guys fisherman? Because they seem more like the Roman Gemini god-twins who are now bowing down to Jesus ?  Jesus was always very concerned that you pay your taxes as well. What a stinking pile.

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