You won't find God in the dictionary.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

“Amen I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise”.

I get some interesting arguments from theists when I mention that verse (Luke 23:43) when they are telling me all about the accuracy of the Bible. I like to point out to them that the language it was originally written in contained no commas.

So what is your point Reg?

Well the line sometimes gets printed as “I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”. This means that today Jesus is telling him that at some point in the future he will meet Jesus in Paradise.  Without the comma it can mean that later this same day, they will meet again in Paradise.

Some Bibles have the comma, some don’t. Seldom have I met a theist that knows about the grammatical structuring exercises that happened when the translators worked on other peoples versions of the translations they were working on.

Then I sit back to listen to their private interpretations of scripture.  What Jesus is actually telling us here is that…….

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Davis wrote:

Jesus’s so call words? We don’t know what they are

According to the article, some verses can be reliably attributed to Jesus.  It makes sense that some other stuff in the New Testament was manufactured.

[IvyParticipant]

@davis

It’s shocking how ignorant you are of the role the decline in religion played in making your rights possible. You should be VERY thankful for secularization and the withdrawl of religious poison (and adoption of humanist principles).

It’s shocking how strongly you seem to adopt an “us vs. them” mentality when it comes to religion – the VERY ROOT OF THE PROBLEM – and THE ACTUAL cause of all of the injustice you seek to make better by getting rid of religion…hypocrite much?

you think stomping out religion is the path to utopia. And in taking the position you do, you are actually JUST as intolerant as your perceived oppressors. That’s a pretty dangerous position to be in.

 

 

 

 

[IvyParticipant]

@jakelafort

The quality of life in the secular nation is far better

It REALLY depends on how you measure quality of life.

I think it’s easy for you to say that. But that’s not true for everyone. I live in one of the most secular parts of the US and my quality of life in the things that really matter is shit.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Ivy, in comparing quality of life in secular v. theocracy we can ONLY assess the objective manifestations of the nation/culture as opposed to how an individual fares.  Peculiar experiences and or idiosyncracies will vary and cause some to prosper in one and not the other. So if a person is beset by horrible luck..always meeting the wrong person or getting sick or being fired they may come to despise the culture.  Or an individual quark of personality may predispose a person to favor one culture or the other.

On the other hand to judge which nation/culture  is better is easy.  The paramount consideration: FREEDOM ( can any person in the society thrive or prosper?)  If the answer is depends on who you are then the society is no good.  If expressing one’s opinion is dangerous…no good. If you are a woman and have to cover your face and body when you go outside the home…no good.  If you are a woman and must be accompanied by a man whenever you go out, no good. If you are female and cant get an education bcoz…well you are female, no good. If you are gay and have to avoid relationships or do it covertly at risk of harm…no good. etc…easy peezy lemon squeezy.

 

 

[DavisParticipant]

The extent of our knowledge of Jesus, Simon, is that some man existed in the Levant around 30AD (very roughly) who was Jewish and was executed. We know absolutely NOTHING ELSE. He could have been a criminal, a charlatan, a misfit, an innocent person persecuted for no real reason, a fuck-up, a psycho…we don’t know nor could possibly know. Simon if we don’t have any primary sources from Jesus’s time other than those that allude to a guy named Jesus being Cruxified how can we attribute anything to him. In what universe is that intellectually honest? The only thing we know other than that is that some holy books written decades later by people who weren’t there or even alive at the time wrote. I don’t know in what universe we can call any of this “attributable to”. Have you even read a book or even an objective academic article on the historicity of Jesus?

Which article are you referring to?

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Coming soon to a cinema near you – Jesus, the teenage years.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon you refer to Jesus’s moral teachings as genius. Are you implying that since the dawn of the Christian church that somehow the Holy Roman Empire and Western Europe, who benefitted from all this genius was morally superior to the Chinese Empire and the rest of Asia including India? Superior to the Natives of the Americas and Oceana? I would say if anything the opposite is true. And then you counter with, well they are not “true Christians” but Scotsmen are, right? The New Testament offers nothing new at all. At it’s core it allows one to assign all transgressions to a scapegoat as payment for belief. It is pathetic.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Davis wrote:

Which article are you referring to?

The article that Reg linked to above.  At the end, it says that a number of sayings attributed to Jesus are thought to be genuine.

_Robert_ wrote:

Are you implying that since the dawn of the Christian church that somehow the Holy Roman Empire and Western Europe, who benefitted from all this genius was morally superior to the Chinese Empire and the rest of Asia including India? Superior to the Natives of the Americas and Oceana?

I’m not saying that their morals were superior, but some of Jesus’ moral philosophy hasn’t been equalled by others (Kant, Bentham etc.).

 

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Turns out the film I mentioned was a bit of a dud. A blank screen with no soundtrack for 90 minutes. What happened the script?

Strange because at the birth of Jesus, which was prophesied for centuries, stars shone for him in the night sky, angles sang out, the Magi who were very wise arrived with expensive gifts and then…nothing for the next 30 years???? What happened the Magi? After all the fuss they went to and then ignored all his other birthdays. I mean Jesus was born of a virgin!! So were Hephaestus, Perseus, Mithras, Dionysus, Krishna and Quetzalcoatl to name a few others and they were doted upon for years. Jesus went walkabout for the next 30 years?? Did nobody keep any records?

Am I wrong? Any good theologians or apologists able to correct me?

[DavisParticipant]

The New Testament offers nothing new at all

I’ve demonstrated this multiple times but Simon keeps repeating this “truism” that Jesus’s message was some how revolutionary and new. You could reproduce a god damn 25 volume encyclopedia of the people and times who have conveyed the same god damn message. As I teacher I have learnt to hit my head against the wall repeatedly. When I had younger students I think all I was doing was injuring my skull plate.

• This reply was modified 10 months ago by  Davis.

[DavisParticipant]

At the end, it says that a number of sayings attributed to Jesus are thought to be genuine.

Could you please quote the paragraph where it says that? And perhaps the previous and following one. I don’t see any text whatsoever that claims any saying is directly attributable to Jesus. If anything all it does is point out numerous errors and lack of witnesses while at the same time quoting the bible (which is a completely unreliable text when it comes to Jesus’s words and actions because…there is utterly no other source or evidence to back it up). Perhaps I missed something.

[_Robert_Participant]

Turns out the film I mentioned was a bit of a dud. A blank screen with no soundtrack for 90 minutes. What happened the script?

It’s like when you take a few years off and have a hole in  your resume you can’t explain. I do think the existence of the man himself will increasingly be challenged. The traditional bible scholars would naturally avoid working themselves out of a job. If the whole thing IS fiction, they would be in trouble. It’s not like there are legions of people and college departments focused on making a living studying Moby Dick.

I’ve demonstrated this multiple times but Simon keeps repeating this “truism” that Jesus’s message was some how revolutionary and new

I have noticed that and frankly even if he was just considered a regular dude Confucius has him pre-dated and beat with concise and subtle messages, LOL.

https://www.brainyquote.com/lists/authors/top-10-confucius-quotes

 

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Directly addressing the topic of the definition of God, I accidentally found this video of Bill Moyers 2013 interview with Daniel Dennett. As usual, I skip several minutes into the long video for you where I recommend you can just watch about 3-1/2 minutes of it, if that’s all you can afford:

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Could you please quote the paragraph where it says that?

The last paragraph but one:

And embrace what modern Bible experts know to be the true sections of the New Testament. Jesus said, Don’t judge. He condemned those who pointed out the faults of others while ignoring their own. And he proclaimed, “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.”

[Author]

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