Sunday School

[Simon Paynton]

jakelafort wrote:

“Pediatrician fired for vile post suggesting Texas flood victims were Trump supporters who got what they voted for. New York Post” In the comments the following appears. “Leftists, liberals and Democrats need to be rounded up and put into concentration camps for treason.”

Those are dreadful things for anyone to say, and extremism is the problem.  Extremists care about the one cause more than human welfare.  Where you get extremism, you get narcissists and other dark traits, and those people love nothing more than to stir up fights and trouble.

[Strega]

@simon

”Extremists care about the one cause more than human welfare.”

I really like this point. It makes so much sense for today’s white river rafting kakistocracy.

[Simon Paynton]

Strega wrote:

kakistocracy

That’s a great word, I’ve never heard it before.

[jakelafort]

“Extremists care about the one cause more than human welfare.”

Is it true?

Lets agree on a subset of extremists. Nazis? Obviously. Islamic suicide bombers? Obviously. White Christians out on a Sunday afternoon to take in some entertainment so they watch an innocent Black man being lynched. Asked AI for a famous incident. I have read about more than a few and had my stomach turn. “A prominent and infamous lynching incident is the Lynching of Jesse Washington in Waco, Texas, on May 15, 1916. This event, where a 17-year-old African American farmhand was brutally murdered by a white mob after being accused of murder and rape, is a well-documented example of racial violence in the United States.
Here’s why it’s considered a famous incident:
Public Spectacle:
The lynching was a public event, with over 10,000 spectators, including city officials and children, present.
Brutal Details:
Washington was tortured, hanged over a bonfire, and subjected to mutilation by the mob.

Obviously i could keep going and going. Not hard to find extremists. It is harder to find those opposed to extremism in periods of extremism.

So it is true then that the aforementioned extremists and countless other groups through history do not care about human welfare? In impact it is obviously true. Take communism. Started out with good intentions. All about creating human welfare for all instead of a few, or at least the proletariat. Turned into a nightmare and yet its adherents were not always dissuaded by overwhelming evidence. It seems the religion of communism and its attachment as an identity surpasses any regard for human welfare. Ok hard to deny but is it also fair to posit the decision making, the free will, of those swept up by the river of communist ideology? Hmm?

If you are a lefty you may not like this but i see you as an extremist moron who does not care about human welfare (or if i am feeling philosophical just another human swept up by another ideological wave) Supporting Palestinianism, discouraging critiques of Islam and encouraging its acceptance into western civilization along with antizionism and the lies about the state of Israel; all of it is contrary to human welfare. Without elaborating you are supporting Islam and the millions who are oppressed by it. Not only is it a barbaric death cult but those born into that cult are mostly destined for horrible lives. You are supporting Jew hatred and making the lives of Jews all over the world more dicey and uncomfortable. You are supporting Palestinianism and that means the end of the state of Israel, and supporting the war of return or endless cycle of dead Palestinians and dead Jews. You are by your hyperfocus on the aforementioned ignoring and turning the spotlight away from human suffering all over the globe. Actual genocide, and apartheid and hunger and disease. etc. But is it fair to posit in lefties the decision making, free will, of those swept up by the River Woke in the River Nepenthe of progressivism? Hmm?

[Strega]

We can get swallowed by our own prejudices on occasion without even being aware of that.

@Jake I disagree with your perception of ‘lefties’. Perhaps we have a different interpretation of the definition of ‘lefties’.

I am a leftie. In my world view, equity is better than equality, women should be in charge of their own fucking bodies, we should help those people that are less well off than ourselves, and basic dignity is the hallmark of our lives.

Now, as well as these generic sentiments, I do not support Hamas nor their Gaza families amongst whom they nurtured their rage and hatred. I was horrified by the attacks on Israel by Hamas and I have no sympathy for the Palestinians in Gaza. The Israelis know Netanyahu is an arsehole, but in the current circumstances there’s no replacement waiting in the wings. I have a much loved Israeli client who is in the army there and with whom I discuss politics and learn about different perspectives.

America is angry. People are scared of having no health protection, not enough money for food, and Trumpism had an easy path to win their votes by holding up things to hate and giving them reasons to hate them.

Social media has led people to believe their opinions, whether right, wrong or idiotic, matter and deserve respect. Thwarted by our inability to scream and shout our opinions, we simply co-opted Caps-Lock and now we can express our rage even better.  Did you know that ‘/s’ means sarcasm, in case the reader is unaware?  How insane is it to have to soften a particular joke with a /s so people don’t fly into a rage?

America is scared and angry, and behaving badly.  Whether it denies this with broad belligerence or by use of curated examples, the general population is terrified.

It feels so tense and incendiary, that it can’t sustain this constant rage –  something has to give.

[jakelafort]

Just watched Trump and his cabinet of sycophants. What a stable genius! His cognitive decline is accelerating. When he goes on for a few minutes at a time the tangents and non sequiturs are launched and he simply can’t stay cogent. What a jaw dropping spectacle of the movie Idiocracy in real time.

[jakelafort]

Strega,

Our biases are always in play and that is part of the trap of confirmation bias. We are all human and to one degree or another vulnerable.

I agree labels can be misleading. I don’t consider you a lets say doctrinaire lefty. If one adopts some aspects of an ideology but rejects others that is commendable. The problem is Ideologies sweep people off of their feet until there is no agency whatsoever. Just a marionette and its puppet.

“I am a leftie. In my world view, equity is better than equality, women should be in charge of their own fucking bodies, we should help those people that are less well off than ourselves, and basic dignity is the hallmark of our lives.”

The only thing you’ve written there that i am not sure is whether equity is better than equality. Haven’t thought about it enough but my knee jerk is that it is not. Perhaps at some point in history that may have been true but no longer is it so.

And if basic dignity and autonomy of a woman is a core value you must despise Islam. And therefore you must be opposed to the conformity that is demanded in lefty institutions regarding the protection and indeed infiltration of Islam into the west. You must be opposed to the alliance between far left and Islamism. You must be opposed to the silencing by the lefties of Muslims/apostates from Islamic nations who keep telling us how horrible their lives are as a direct result of Islam. You must be opposed to the silencing by lefties of people who tell us how much antisemitism is part and parcel of Islam and far more systemic then any form of racism or discrimination in USA. You must be opposed to the environment leftism has caused at our academic instituions and some of our corporations. In general you must be alarmed at the treatment of free speech where one is ‘free’ to espouse the party line but will be cancelled if critical.

“Now, as well as these generic sentiments, I do not support Hamas nor their Gaza families amongst whom they nurtured their rage and hatred. I was horrified by the attacks on Israel by Hamas and I have no sympathy for the Palestinians in Gaza. The Israelis know Netanyahu is an arsehole, but in the current circumstances there’s no replacement waiting in the wings. I have a much loved Israeli client who is in the army there and with whom I discuss politics and learn about different perspectives.”

If you are not supporting Hamas you are not aligned with far left. As far as no sympathy for Palestinians i don’t feel that way. And that is because i don’t conceive as others do people making choices based on their best interest and rationalism. Instead humans are as i keep suggesting in large measure acted upon by external influences. And the indoctrination of Palestinians kids in Gaza is so horrific it more than rivals the Germans of Nazi Germany. (i’ve listened to the accounts of Palestinians who attended these schools) How many Germans opposed Hitler? Hitler youth was originally voluntary and yet it was almost entirely volunteered. Palestinians are not any less vulnerable to ideological indoctrination than Germans are. When i learned about UNWRA and how the west was funding it even though it was largely run by terrorists who were inculcating terrorism in their schools i realized how rotten the west is. Killing Jews is the greatest accomplishment in life. The PLO pays for slay. Two state solution was never sought. It was always an outrage to have former Dhimmi Jew fuckers in power and worse to have them embarassingly more successful than Islamic nations. No story about UNWRA. No outrage. No nothing. And that is because the fundamental and ageless hatred against Jews is unabated and now accentuated by lefties. Furthermore the religion of Jew hatred of the lefties is sacrosanct and not to be overturned by an honest examination.

The rest of what you have written i largely agree. The guy who i consider the voice of reason is Sam Harris. Can’t say i agree with all of his thoughts but the guy isn’t at all swept up by ideologies. He craps all over Maga and the far left.

[Strega]

Although I am very aware that anti-semetic beliefs or Jew hatred exists, I have somehow managed to avoid encountering any, in all my years. It’s bewildering to me. It’s as if everyone else can physically see something and I can’t. Maybe it’s partly because I grew up in an atheist family. Maybe it’s because there were many different religions where I grew up, and nobody was particularly devout in public.

Maybe it’s because I grew up during the ‘Irish Troubles’ and Protestants and Catholics were basically fighting for territory, not for who worshipped the Christian god correctly.

Perhaps I assumed Jewish people lived in Israel like Catholics live in Ireland. When I researched a bit, I found Jewish people have lived in Israel for two centuries – not because of the parcelled handout of land after WWII – that was just acknowledgment of fact.

I’ve only really come across the singling out of Jews since I’ve been in the USA. And I do notice it. A friend discovered that my vet was someone who she had babysat for, then she mentioned she (vet) was Jewish. I could not fathom what deduction I was supposed to make.  I do notice it in small doses like that.

In my personal experience, I really, really like every one of the Jewish people I’ve met, over here. It’s just that in the UK, I probably wouldn’t have known they were Jewish.

Edited to add, an example of equity is having dedicated handicap parking spaces

• This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by Strega. Reason: Old age memory lapse

[TheEncogitationer]

Strega,

Thanks for the new word “kakistocracy,” and an apt word it is describing all sides and all places in our world today.

Now as for “Equity” and “Equality,” here is where you would need to define your terms, since the dictionary doesn’t suffice here.

If “Equality” and “equity” means equal dignity, equal rights, equal responsibilities, equal opportunities in the sense of no arbitrary barriers to achievement of the good life, than this is perfectly cromulent with human flourishing and human freedom And I am all for these things.

If “Equality” and “Equity” means equal outcomes or uniformity of humans, this is something that can never be achieved as long as there are different thoughts, different actions, and different consequences, in different times, places. And contexts…nor should it be achieved or even an aspiration. This is a horrible thought for anyone who values everything in the previous paragraph.

So, define what you mean by “Equality” and “Equity.” Then we can see whether this gets us away from our present kakistocratic (did I do that right?) state of the world.

[jakelafort]

Strega,

Also grew up in an atheist family. No hiding my ancestry because of my surname or half of my ancestry and the only half that matters. Obama is Black but half White so he is Black. I have been keenly aware of racist mofo all of my life. First really vivid recollection i was a little kid and my dad had a ‘friend’ who we were visiting. I stayed by the pool and parents and sis left. The man of the house did not know i was there and he belted out, “did that Jew bastard finally leave” And as i recently explained the Jew hatred in my affluent area in high school was wickedly Jew hating and elitist. The poor area i started life which was mostly Irish Catholic was not as bad but it was there. That high school now has team Hamas against team Hitler as indicated in the article and life is hell for the Jewish students as the lefty lies of Palestinianism have infected the place.

The world has increased immesurably in antisemitism woops Jew hatred since October 7 invasion by Hamas. There are so many metrics measuring this and corroborating my contention. I read the Jerusalem Post every day and there is a section titled Antisemitism and it will let ya know how bad it is. All over the world. To me antisemitism is too sterile a word and it is conflated with Semites so it loses its connotations.

Jews have been in territory roughly corresponding to Ancient states of Judea and Israel for roughly 3500 years and maintained a constant presence even through exiles. Also there have been Jews who have come back before Zionism was a political movement of the late 19th century.

I have no argument with parking spots! That is equity that makes sense.

[Strega]

@enco  There is no perfection, and arguably no equality in real life.  An example of equity might be the allocation of school bus costs on a headcount basis, even though some students live much further from school than others.

It is precisely because there is no such thing as equality, that equity steps into the breach.

 

[Strega]

@jake I am horrified at the way you grew up with such animosity. I’m full of admiration for the fact that you’ve turned out to be so decent.

You’re much more tribal here in America. People really like labels and grouping terms. Maybe it’s because you had to invade the land you live in, and had to manage indigenous peoples, so it’s a Cowboys and Indians mentality.  Or Us vs Them

It seems to me that when we feel besieged, frightened, angry or fearful, we seem to enter fight mode. All those other groups are the enemy. Prejudice is exacerbated and violence ensues.  And this is what’s happening now.

As I said earlier, the dam has to break, the pressure is too high.

[TheEncogitationer]

Strega,

Edited to add, an example of equity is having dedicated handicap parking spaces.

Most every private business and publicly open establishment in the States has these and some have dedicated parking spaces for pregnant women and Veterans.

All of these are good, nice things to have and I don’t object and would never park in these places.

However, whether there “oughta be a law” for a private business to have these parking spaces or to require anyone to do nice things is another matter entirely. Here is where “equity” would run against equal rights.

Also, when the handicapped outnumber the parking spaces, even the best of intentions for “Equity” doesn’t help things.

I have endured the shame and disgust of seeing the following in real life over handicapped parking spaces and handicapped electric carts:

Things like this in real life can bring out despair for humanity.

The best thing to aim for is to free people to innovate cures and solutions so that no one is handicapped–physically or ethically–in the first place. A harder task, but worth it to avoid seeing the worst in human beings.

[jakelafort]

Strega,

“You’re much more tribal here in America. People really like labels and grouping terms. Maybe it’s because you had to invade the land you live in, and had to manage indigenous peoples, so it’s a Cowboys and Indians mentality. Or Us vs Them

It seems to me that when we feel besieged, frightened, angry or fearful, we seem to enter fight mode. All those other groups are the enemy. Prejudice is exacerbated and violence ensues. And this is what’s happening now.

As I said earlier, the dam has to break, the pressure is too high.”

I’d love to find a locale, a people, who are not tribal. It is our evolutionary root and mode of survival. Others are stoning the witch. So our actor stones the witch. Grows up a Presbyterian so our actor is a Presbyterian. Whites grow up with hatred of Blacks and Blacks who fight in the second world war come home and are called boy and completely disrespected and subject to Jim Crow laws.

Us v them is everywhere and it is accentuated by politicians and theologians. In war it is necessary to demonize the enemy. In politics the opposition is demonized. Ideologies like the far left as i have hammered ad nauseum are reprehensible in singling out Israel as a pariah state. And btw i should mention how the only one who has to my knowledge on far left called out the Progressive acquiescence of the guilt of the collective Jew. Thank you Van Jones. Imagine some African nation and how there is a genocide whether real or fabricated and all Blacks are guilty? Not in a million. That reminds me of how disillusioned Muslim apostate women are at Progressives who bled for Black Lives Matter and said nothing about the woman in Iran who was executed cuz she showed a little hair. If you care about women’s rights your concern ought not be restricted to your pet projects.

As someone famous said about the nature of man nasty poor brutish and short it is how life is for the majority and so those feelings of being under constant strain and stress are omnipresent. And that anxiety is in large measure transferred to the boogyman. Historically and today it is the collective Jew who killed Christ and fill in the blood libel. When pressure builds up too high there is indeed a release and we get flagulents in the middle ages and lynchings of Jews. Same thing happened to Blacks in America. Future of USA? idk aint lookin a little too jerky.

[TheEncogitationer]

Strega,

enco There is no perfection, and arguably no equality in real life. An example of equity might be the allocation of school bus costs on a headcount basis, even though some students live much further from school than others.

It is precisely because there is no such thing as equality, that equity steps into the breach.

It would probably be hard to calculate how much each individual student uses the buses and when, so headcount is probably the most parsimonious solution, “Equity” or no.

[Author]

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