Sunday School

[TheEncogitationer]

Strega,

You’re much more tribal here in America. People really like labels and grouping terms. Maybe it’s because you had to invade the land you live in, and had to manage indigenous peoples, so it’s a Cowboys and Indians mentality. Or Us vs Them.

What Jake has copiously said addresses this as a human condition, not exclusive to the U.S.A. But I might add that the indigenous tribes here warred and enslaved each other for centuries before Europeans arrived and Africans were dragooned along for the ride. And these Europeans and Africans brought along their own tribalist wars and hatreds. Without respect for Liberty for All, neither “the melting pot” nor “the salad bowl” is savory and indeed is poisonous.

• This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Grammar agreement

[Simon Paynton]

The UK isn’t all that tribal.  We have a long tradition of civility together with freedom of expression.  We seem to value people being themselves.  The extremists (left, right) are the most tribal, but then, we know why.  They just love competition and dominance.

[jakelafort]

Enco writes, What Jake has copiously said addresses this as a human condition, not exclusive to the U.S.A. But I might add that the indigenous tribes here warred and enslaved each other for centuries before Europeans arrived and Africans were dragooned along for the ride. And these Europeans and Africans brought along their own tribalist wars and hatreds. Without respect for Liberty for All, neither “the melting pot” nor “the salad bowl” is savory and indeed is poisonous.

While i agree indigenous Americans which by the way the dating of their arrival keeps getting pushed back…i think latest i read is up to 40,000 yrs ago…engaged in slavery and war it was not nearly as systematic and degrading as the Atlantic slave trade which truly was an abomination and unspeakably horrible. But it is also true that slavery is part of our human heritage.

Slavery in Africa was carried out by Africans and Arabs were instrumental as middle men. Arabs still have slavery. The Arab word for Black is slave. Slav is slave also. Ya know the undesirable Slavs. In Yemen and Saudi according to WIKI outlawed slavery in 1962. But i seem to remember a more recent date in one of the Arab Muslim nations. And you want to talk about some genocide, oppression and devaluing of human lives then look no further than African and Arab nations. But we can’t talk about that if we are lefties. Ruins the story. And are Asians exempt from atrocities and oppression? Not one stinking bit. Fill in the blank with Japanese in Nanking, in Phillippines. Cambodian genocide under Pol Pot. Communist revolution in China. Genocide in Bangladesh. Plenty of slavery among Asians also. Stop the lefty bullshit. It is infantile and it is destructive.

Talk about the absence of any rational basis for all religion and how religion has impacted history. Talk about how one enterprise after another has failed and the best of bad choices is capitalism. Talk about the superiority of democracy compared to communism, autocracy and theocracy and how the challenges of democracy must be addressed. Examine the secular religions that have been substitutes for theism and their impact on history. Talk about the importance of critical thinking. Don’t be a sucker and identify with any ideology to a degree that swallows the intellect of the actor.

Point is CRT and the lefty narratives and mythology are BS. The identity politics are BS. They are causing untold harm. Reality based critical theory looks at commonality of human nature and commonality of human history.

[jakelafort]

History of England is immensely oppressive of native peoples. Sun did not set. Exploitation on steroids. Fucked over the Irish to a degree that is shameful. Not much freedom of expression in the star chamber. Ya did beat the Americans in outlawing slavery first. USA gave the vote to women a bit sooner.

Regardless it is a woeful history. A history of classism. A history of exploitation. Native peoples divided and conquered. Their resources taken. White man’s burden and all of that, what? If that is not tribal, us and them, then what is it? Charley Dickens and exploitation of children… Having said that English are just human and i left out all of the good things. Their food sucks though, right? Fish and chips. Is that it? kippers. meh.

I am not buying the competition and dominance notion.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Just a few comments.

I’ve only really come across the singling out of Jews since I’ve been in the USA.

I can say the same Strega. I lived for a few years on the East End Road in East Finchley, London. The population was mainly English, Jewish (English and East European\Russian), Indian and Irish. But nobody cared about that. To the point that it would never even cross my mind. My landlord happened to be Jewish, and I only knew that because he could not meet me at a specific time because he had prayers then. He met me in the local Irish bar afterwards for a Guinness served by Ahmed. (Yes, I am sure there is a joke in there somewhere).

Many moons later I was collected by my brother from the “MARTA” train in Atlanta. As we passed the local synagogue near our house, I noticed 2 police cars outside it. I asked my brother if something had happened. He said, no, it’s just a precaution because of some recent incident and a few bomb threats. Right, Belfast all over again. ….

I had a ‘conversation’ yesterday when I was stopped and asked for my opinion of the current situation in Gaza. I am around long enough to know when I am being asked a leading question by someone who thinks that they have mastered their subject but are basically just holding poorly formed opinions (like most theists who think they are certified apologists).

It: “Do you (me) think that Israel overreacted to the September 11th kidnappings”?

Me: You mean the Nova (Re’im) music festival on October 7th 2023?

It: Huh? Well yes, that one.

Me: How many people were kidnapped? More than 100?

It: That is not the point.

Me: What about the bombs on that day.

It: I don’t think Israel bombed them (sic) that day.

Me: I am talking about the HAMAS attack on Israel. Hamas fired about 4,300 rockets into Israel within about 20 minutes and later that evening they fired another 150 rockets towards other parts of Israel. Over the next 2 weeks they fired over 8,500 rockets and mortar rounds at Israel. On October 7th alone, HAMAS killed over 1,200 Israeli civilians and took around 250 hostages.  At the Nova concerted they massacred 344 civilians and 34 security guards.

Me: What did you think when you heard that Emily Hand was kidnapped?

It: Who?

Me: Emily Hand, the 9-year-old Irish girl that was held captive for 50 days?

It: Mmmmm, how could she be Irish if she lived there?

Me: She was visiting with her Irish father when the brave HAMAS warriors of god kidnapped her during a sleepover.

It: I will have to fact check that.

Me: OK, I gotta go now. BTW should your keffiyeh not be black and white? I mean a red and white keffiyeh is more Jordanian and has tribal affiliations. Be careful not to engage in cultural appropriation! Anyway, Wada ‘an ya sadiqi.

It: Ok…bye.

 

[jakelafort]

He said it.

Ha ha.

Ok so i have not even read these but quick search and here are a few among many indicating the trajectory.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/02/british-jews-experience-more-antisemitism-as-middle-east-war-escalates

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-details-terrible-normalized-antisemitism-at-uk-universities/

[TheEncogitationer]

Reg,

The tip-off that you were dealing with an “It” was that “It” got the date wrong and called the horrors of October 7th a singular “kidnapping” instead of a pogrom.

And, as a side bar absurdity, “It” also downgraded September 11th, 2001 by calling it a singular “kidnapping” instead of an attack on civilization as a whole.

I wouldn’t have had the stomach or patience to have engaged with anyone that brainless. Hats off to you, Reg.

[Strega]

@Reg THANK YOU!! I feel less weird about it now 🙂

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

I used the word ‘It’ as I knew from the tone of the question that I was just dealing with another one of ‘Them’. A useful idiot spewing “gotcha” type questions who had no comprehension of what had happened in Israel and did not even have the basic facts correct. I only bother speaking with ‘them’ for a few minutes when I can see that I am being listened to by the rest of the group. I was speaking to them all as sometimes I do make a breakthrough and get some of them thinking about what I am saying. I left because none of ‘them’ said anything. They all looked confused, which I will take as a good result. Almost 40 years debating Christians so it comes easy. I have the answer to their next question ready before they have even asked it 🙂

[TheEncogitationer]

Jake,

While i agree indigenous Americans which by the way the dating of their arrival keeps getting pushed back…i think latest i read is up to 40,000 yrs ago…engaged in slavery and war it was not nearly as systematic and degrading as the Atlantic slave trade which truly was an abomination and unspeakably horrible. But it is also true that slavery is part of our human heritage.

Not to engage in Oppression Olypmics, but to give credit where it is due: The First Nations Americans, most notably in Central America, were systematic enough to build pyramids and sacrifice tens of thousands to appease their Sun-Gods and run theocratic totalitarian empires. Also, when Europeans arrived and brought African slaves, many American tribes also partook in the slave trade with the Europeans. Later, when they were freed, Africans joined with their European oppressors as Buffalo Soldiers and pushed the First Nations into their present reservation squalor.

I have ancestors on all sides of this, but instead of “a pox on all their houses,” I say: “Everybody Vaxx up and stop the spread!”

[jakelafort]

I know a guy who grew up in Utah and while the Mormons were not his friend he never heard any Jew hating rhetoric. Was surprised to learn how prevalent it is.

Here is Seinfeld on some of these issues and how it has touched his life. Interestingly Simon, he attributes extremism to i think he said consensus and the need for agreement as part of our tribal nature. Seinfeld btw is supposed to be a distant relative of mine. I had i think 4 clients who told me i reminded them of Seinfeld and one Kramer.

[jakelafort]

Well said Enco. I like that-the oppression olympics. The cast of characters would be severely chopped by lefties.

I was gonna mention the Aztec, Inca and Maya. Just proves human nature in the impact of consolidation of power. Don’t forget how tough and brutal the Commanche were. I think the Cherokee had a lot of slaves if memory serves. You are spot on though. It is just human nature and the lefties are just so full of shit.

Who sings that song about Buffalo Soldier?

[_Robert_]

Boiling down antisemitism to “left or right” just tells me you are halfway to a moron. It’s like the guy living in a trailer on Social Security and Medicaid who votes for Trump because he hates Hispanics.

The betrayal of Trump voters happening in real time was totally predictable. The extra trillions added to the national debt, lower taxes for the top 5% millionaires-plus and the mass benefit/service takeaway from the poor is only eclipsed by the bought and paid for SCOTUS ruling churches can endorse political candidates and still be tax exempt.

The US Constitution is a meaningless piece of paper.

[jakelafort]

I am only half a moron. Yeah! I am a complete moron in terms of using the computer effectively. But your opening line is a strawman.

I never once boiled down antisemitism to left or right. Seemingly disparate interests can always share in hatred of Jews. When it is not manifest it is latent and liable to boil over as it has in so many permutations and for so long. And again i prefer the honest expression, Jew hatred.

The predictability of the things you mentioned are all captain obvious. For me the lefties mischaracterizing Israel’s war against Hamas as genocide was a great bet right from the outset of the avalanche of Jew hatred set off by the lefties. The critique of Maga and the threat to the USA similarly ducks in a bathtub. I too see the USA in decline and acknowledge it may not be recognizable as USA in short order. That anyone with intelligence exceeding a high functioning victim of downs syndrome can fall for Trump is a mystery. Well no it is not. It is just how we humans are. It is idiocracy as art meets idiocracy in life.

None of that changes the fact that today it is the far left that is among other things endangering Jews. Far right has been discredited. If you are a neo nazi or some member of a far right hate group the world knows what you are: a cretin, a lowlife, an irremediable scumbag. Nazism and its mythology have been discredited.

Presently, the source, the cause of the tidal wave of Jew hatred apart from Islamism is the far left. Many parts of the world are the equivalent for Jews of 1931 Germany. If you are not aware of that you are simply ignorant of the facts.

Whereas far right Jew hatred has as i have indicated been discredited the far left has a veneer of intellectual legitimacy. For anyone who can think well and is conversant with the history it is also shooting ducks in a bathtub. Unfortunately very few think well. But they regurgitate like a mutha.

The lefty Jew hatred religion is in our schools. But it is not just the universities. It is not just high schools. It is in freaking grade schools. I looked at the curriculum of Jew hatred in Massachusetts. Fucking shocking. And not long after i discovered my old high school has Team Hamas against Team Hitler. It is the ideology of so many professors. And they actively indoctrinate students and discrourage free speech or contrary opinions. It is a climate that is ultra hostile to Jews. The media knows better but keeps reporting lies. The media frames so many stories with terms being adopted that are the lingo of the Jew hatred ideology. So little examination of the root cause of the conflict in Israel, so little condemnation and exposure of Hamas and so much shame and blame is creating in the masses a pariah state and a justification for underlying Jew hatred. The collective Jew christ killers are back with a vengeance. These kids today who are so fervent in their beliefs and have the argument from popularity/authority to butress their biases will some day be in power. Everybody is saying so it must be true. Jews the world over are endangered today by the far left. Genocide, genocide, genocide, occupied territories, open air prison, apartheid, White colonialist settler state, evil zionist entity hammered into their pea brains. Meanwhile Israel surrounded by states that are human rights violation champions on steroids. Yeah i despise it. In my estimation humans are for the most part acted upon by external influences. I don’t know how anyone who thinks about current affairs and about history can gainsay that contention. That is why i am jonesing for documentaries from pro Israelis and kickass debates between pro Israelis and pro Palestinian far lefties. If you doubt my premise read the JP section on antisemitism for a few months. Or just the headlines.

[jakelafort]

Here is one article from today’s edition of JP. BTW it is also clear to me that Israel can’t trust the USA to sell it weapons if far left takes power again. I think i read other than USA after oct 7 only Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland or Serbia sold weapons to Israel. Other countries cancelled executory contracts. How fucked up is that? Israel is fighting its own existential battle but it is also in defense of the west albeit incidental. So as the world turns more and more against them led by Lefty ideology so they have to manufacture more and more military equipment.

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-860391

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