Sunday School
Sunday School March 30th 2025
This topic contains 22 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by TheEncogitationer 2 weeks, 1 day ago.
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March 31, 2025 at 9:16 pm #56864
I will start by saying that I would be in the Sean Carroll camp on this. One foot might cross over to the Christof Koch side at times, but only to hear him out and to think upon his ideas. I have a lot of respect for Koch and was fortunate to attend a few of his lectures over the years. But my instinct has been to step back into Camp Carroll and in recent times, I am more planted here.
For Koch, consciousness is fundamental. Annaka Harris would agree with him. For Carroll, consciousness is emergent. Roger Penrose would have similar view to Carroll.
The way I see it…in brief… (and very simplistically) is that human intelligence is a product of evolution. We started off with basic pattern recognition and cognitive functions that all evolved over time. Intelligence evolved and we began to “store” information. If we saw another person attacked by a lion, we did not make the same error. We reflected on what happened we “learned by experience”. This ability to store ‘information’ gave rise to consciousness, in its basic form. I guess we call these the easy problems of consciousness.
That still leaves the hard problem which focuses on qualia: the raw, subjective aspects of experience, like the redness of red or the pain of a headache. Neuroscience can explain how the brain processes information, but it does not explain why certain physical processes feel like something from the inside. For example, why does neural activity in the visual cortex give rise to the experience of seeing colour rather than just processing wavelengths of light?
We have a gap in our understanding of consciousness. Or maybe it would be better if I said we have a gap in our attempts at explaining it. Physical sciences describe objective properties of the world, but consciousness is inherently subjective. For me, the mind is the manifestation of what that brain does. There is no duality of mind and body, even though it is easy to feel like there is. People can be excused for continuing to think that consciousness is something that exists at a deeper, more fundamental level in the fabric of the universe, like energy. But when I think critically about it, I see consciousness as a biological emergent property from the neural complexity of our evolving brains.
Christof Koch, who has been a long-time proponent of Integrated Information Theory (IIT), has in recent years leaned toward panpsychism as a plausible explanation for consciousness. So long as he only saw it as a ‘plausible explanation’, I was happy to keep dipping my foot into his camp to hear more. But when he said “Consciousness is not an emergent property. It’s a fundamental feature of the universe”, I drifted away from him for a while.
Sean Carroll disagrees with him completely. For him panpsychism adds ontological baggage without any explanatory power. His stance is that any theory of consciousness should emerge from known physical laws, without positing new fundamental properties of matter. He in turn said “Consciousness doesn’t show up in the equations. So why smuggle it in?” (I am paraphrasing that quote).
March 31, 2025 at 10:50 pm #56865Playing with words here, but I feel there’s a kind of fundamentalish link between my consciousness and rules of the universe, or even the life around me. My consciousness is my brain operating, fine tuned to adapt to the world and life in it. I see that as a kind of “fundamental link”.
But that doesn’t automatically lead to the conclusion that the world and life in it has any kind of fundamental consciousness.
April 1, 2025 at 2:40 am #56867The way I see it…in brief… (and very simplistically) is that human intelligence is a product of evolution. We started off with basic pattern recognition and cognitive functions that all evolved over time. Intelligence evolved and we began to “store” information. If we saw another person attacked by a lion, we did not make the same error. We reflected on what happened we “learned by experience”. This ability to store ‘information’ gave rise to consciousness, in its basic form. I guess we call these the easy problems of consciousness.
Agreed, and plus there is the importance of highly developed languages. I hear my own thoughts in English.
April 1, 2025 at 4:23 pm #56872PopeBesnie,
I’ve learned that there is a style of art created by Studio Ghibli that users have applied to AI-created portrayals of historical and current events and made the stark and deadly serious seem friendly and humorous. An inverted kind of creepy.
The artist behind Studio Ghibli, Hayao Miyazaki, doesn’t like what people have done with the styling using AI:
https://x.com/nuberodesign/status/1904954270119588033
Studio Ghibli Art is Just Getting Weirder
April 1, 2025 at 5:20 pm #56873Robert,
I’ll listen to 24/7 smooth jazz on loop to go to sleep, but I’ll never listen to AI-generated music for sleep. Maybe that’s an unfounded bias, but what AI produces visually looks like nightmare fuel.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by
TheEncogitationer.
April 1, 2025 at 5:36 pm #56875Ah Enco, you conceive of receiving music from AI that might disturb you going to sleep. That would be untamed music
How far are we from asking AI to match our sleep phases and introduce sounds to encourage conscious dreaming, or to assist us as biological individuals to reach optimum rest. Perhaps using a device similar to a smart watch. It intrigues me with its potential.
April 1, 2025 at 7:27 pm #56876AI assisted sleep is an idea worth exploring. Assess physiology, cultural influences and give us what so many are missing. A good night of sleep! Not sure what AI can do for the waker uppers who have benign prostatic hyperplasia or a bladder that wakes us.
However imagine after an assessment one person gets that drumbeat rhythmic assist, another white noise, yet another the sonorous soporific of cricket’s delight. ( When i use sound it is rainforest sounds but my once a month go to when particularly sleep deprived is a tincture of cbd and thc.) And Strega with the recognition of sleep phases. Can these be aided by sound? Probably so. I had a gf who would awaken immediately when the white noise ceased. I despise white noise but snoring, a stertorous chorus, is murderous.
April 2, 2025 at 5:23 pm #56878Strega,
Ah Enco, you conceive of receiving music from AI that might disturb you going to sleep. That would be untamed music
How far are we from asking AI to match our sleep phases and introduce sounds to encourage conscious dreaming, or to assist us as biological individuals to reach optimum rest. Perhaps using a device similar to a smart watch. It intrigues me with its potential.
For me, it’s Occam’s Razor For The Win. I sleep good enough with the smooth jazz loop, so why drag in AI?
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