@jakelafortactive 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
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July 6, 2020 at 1:20 am #32140
Thanks, fullermingjr, it is such a horrible feeling. Not fun for the animal either. It made me think of that movie with the super white skinned bald guy who turns into energy when he somehow causes a hunter to feel what the deer is feeling in the throes of dying after being wounded.July 5, 2020 at 11:15 pm #32138
fullermingjr, if the data were available we could see how many born to certain religions in certain countries are lifetime religion of birth. Am guessing it is 99 percent in some areas and in those areas we would see the least skeptical and most faithful theists. That does not mean those geographic prisoners if you will are stupid. I wish neuroscience were sufficiently advanced to identify mechanics of the brain that enable compartmentalization. What it does mean is that theists ought not trust their acuity when it comes to their religion.
There is a theist who visits here, writes about prophecy and comes off like a not too bright guy or perhaps as a sufferer of a schizophrenic delusion yet has a high iq and writes intelligently in other areas. It is quite unfair to subject children to religion. If it happens at all it should be at age 12 or 13. Ya know i would not mind having a curriculum in public schools in which creationists and theologians debated atheists and scientists. I am rambling….ran over a raccoon today and feel a little awful..July 5, 2020 at 3:36 pm #32126
fullermingjr…i looked up genetic fallacy. Don’t think i committed it. A genetic fallacy is exhibited when the speaker uses another’s origins to make the claim that the subject if good or bad based on its origin so that the speaker fails to assess the claim.
I did not use your origin to prove or disprove the truth of the matter asserted…meaning the veracity of god or Christianity. Instead I maintained that you haven’t the capacity to evaluate those claims because of your indoctrination. Just like similarly situated believers you can not examine those claims the way you would other claims.July 4, 2020 at 9:29 pm #32114
If religion vanishes it means that humans have changed. Either the government has meddled with our biology or AI has. Even if the trend away from religion continues there are too many pockets of virus resistant religion.
Your view that twas ever thus during recorded history is not necessarily accurate. It is instructive to look at primitive people. There are very few left but what we see of nomadic hunter gatherers untouched or nearly untouched by western civ. is a more peaceful life. It is not as hierarchical. Smaller groups do better. Throw in the horse shit that comes with advancement and people behave worse. Ideology in a religious or political framework evinces the very worst in us. Don’t forget that we have capacity to be caring, loving and compassionate…not just raping, pillaging, exploiting, colonizing, etc. It is also instructive to see how modern secular and mostly non religious societies are doing better…they seem to be more tolerant.
So we need to change the nature of the indoctrination/education and do it world wide. That education includes an honest assessment of history. We all need to question everything. As soon as we are too emotionally attached to fill in the blank we engage in all kinds of defense mechanisms to enhance our belief and discard our questions. Being free of religion is not enough to get us out of the woods. When political ideologies are at their most puissant they act as surrogate religions. When that happens it can be as bad or worse at times than religious suzerainty. So there is a tendency which very likely relates to tribalism which once conferred a big survival benefit on earlier humans.July 4, 2020 at 7:16 pm #32111
fullermingjr, am thinking of Christianity as opposed to all theism. But it all sucks.
I very much liked Davis’ ideas with respect to slavery. It applies to other ills as well.
We can do better.July 4, 2020 at 6:32 pm #32110
Davis i am definitely not in favor of forced eradication of religion. I also am less impressed by the holding of irrational/ridiculous beliefs. I have nothing against theists either.
But again, as long as religion exists it will be source of all kinds of unfortunate manifestations. And i view it not from a personal standpoint but as a civilization.July 4, 2020 at 6:27 pm #32109
It is a Syrian refugee who called it to my attention. He has felt the discriminatory effects of Christianity in trying to adapt to the life and become a German citizen. And i know there is free exercise but there is entanglement between government and religion.
Germany is one of the few countries in the world to levy a church tax. This is how the churches finance their spending on the community. The tax offices collect the tax for the churches from their members. It amounts to eight or nine percent of the income tax.
The limits of church power in Germany are still defined by a clause in the legal code of the Weimar Republic, which dates back to the year 1919. It gives the two Christian denominations special privileges such as tax breaks — which do not apply to other religious groups in Germany.
Too lazy to look for links but religion is also too involved in public education.July 4, 2020 at 3:46 pm #32102
Gotcha, fullermingjr…have not studied formal fallacies in many years.
Different, how? Yes arguendo there is on one hand the individual that is conveyed when the phrase drunk drivers is used and a practice when slavery is used. The point is however that theism subsumes three of the four. It promotes racism, it supported slavery, and it supports rapists. So if you see the basis for a person’s adamant stand against the former then you ought to see the basis for a person’s adamant stand against the latter. I am reminded once again how invaluable an encyclopedia of the harms caused by religion could be. Dream on….July 4, 2020 at 2:55 pm #32100
Robert and Davis, seems to me you guys see anti-theism through lens of the individual. How does theism affect me? I see it as how does theism impact civilization.
It is same for me and i think others when we consider racism. We are opposed to it even if it has never gotten within a stone’s throw of our lives.July 4, 2020 at 2:48 pm #32099
fullermingjr, I did not make an allusion to the oft cited…1000 rejections v. 999. I would not imagine you to be the kind of person who would make fun of others who are attached to different forms of mythology. Quite the contrary.
I stand by my animus. If you hear a person railing against slavery, drunk drivers, rapists, racists are you shocked by their animus? If so then you simply do not grasp the impact of religion. Again, I don’t hate theists. I hate theism. Theism has zero to do with reality. It is all make-believe. It perpetuates lies and an approach to life that is contrary to the interests of empiricism and compassion. The harms it has caused are so outstanding that it is maddening to hear the endless BS extolling faith and the lie that religion is equated with morality.
Yes, i asked myself that very question when i was young. What if i were raised by devout anythings…would i have become a theist. How do I know? I know i was extremely curious and wanted to understand the world. I was a questioner. But so what? That describes the many, not the few. Religion has centuries of stamping out the tendencies of youth and implanting the virus. So i do not know what would have become of me.
You say my line of thinking is a logical and genetic fallacy. Have no clue how genetics is related. But yes the truthfulness and validity of a mythology or philosophy exists independently of the viewer. We aren’t considering quantum religion, are we? However if the viewer of religion has been stricken with the virus there is no way for that victim to examine with the same penetration the viewer brings to bear on other topics. The emotional attachment and neurological marriage prevents it.July 4, 2020 at 5:21 am #32095
Davis, i dont know a lot about it but am pretty sure that Germany does not have separation of church and state. It has certain protections for theists but there is some entanglement between religion and the state. Have heard that Catholic chuch is pretty influential in some rural areas.July 4, 2020 at 3:18 am #32093
fullermingrjr, we both questioned. I was brought up in an atheist family. Never heard the religious nonsense…woops…PERSPECTIVE…phew. So when i was 11 or 12 i realized i’d be no better…woops…DIFFERENT.. than a religious kid if i simply adopted the position of my family. So i read theologians and apologists. Wow was i shocked how stupid (YES STUPID!) the arguments and defenses of theism…but the point is ya should always investigate the enemy camp. If your views can’t be challenged then your views are worthless and you are gutless. or sumpin like that.
I led you to water but you did not even look in the river…alter your reality and imagine your life (same fetus) as a son of hasidic Jews or of Sunnis in Saudi. Isn’t it possible or even probable that you would become as devout or perhaps more so?
If you conclude in the affirmative then you ought to realize that your adherence to your branch of Christianity is inherently unreliable. It is an accident of your geography. It is not like making a choice about a world view after having grown and having developed your mind so that ratiocination is at play in adopting some position or other.July 4, 2020 at 12:56 am #32090
Reg, if you are up to it…whatever you meant to say about Ethiopia..July 3, 2020 at 11:46 pm #32086
fuller, just curious whether you have wondered if your upbringing is the reason for your belief in your particular religion. Do you think you would have same degree of faith or belief if you had been born to and lived among Muslims? If you answer in the affirmative then what distinguishes one irrational belief from the other?
You do strike me as unusually honest and courageous as a theist. So there is a chance you will be deconverted. Be careful!July 3, 2020 at 7:51 pm #32078
fullermingjr, you seem to be equivocating about the first amendment as it pertains to religion. It is simple…the government can’t establish/endorse an official religion (because history taught the founders that persecution of non-establishment religious groups are hosed)and every idiot can do his or her own thing..practice to your heart’s content. So there can be no favoritism among the practitioners and the government has to keep its nose out of religion.
Davis, my problem with what you have said is that as long as religion is here it will not be moderate. It just won’t. I also live in a pocket within USA in which religion is not typically shoved in one’s face. Can only recall two incidents with believers my entire life in which i was accosted and browbeaten. But i hear from Americans in the bible belt and it is a fucking nightmare for some of them. As long as reason is cast out and faith is the M. O. we will have hardcore orthodox believers and sects that branch and are invidious. These folks exert an untoward influence on government even when we nonbelievers and moderate believers are not feeling personally offended. On top of that we have millions who live lives of quiet desperation born into a living nightmare.