Thomas Paine

[Thomas Paine]

I have been a member of Americans United (for the Separation of Church and State) – Until he recently retired the group was lead by Barry Lynn for at least 30 years. This organization does an incredible job of monitoring and litigating violations of Church and State separation. They are of course working hard to fend off the removal of  Johnson Amendment.

The evangelical right and the radical far-right are joined at the hip. Ending the Johnson Amendment will not only create a new and enormous flow of cash to end Democracy, it will greatly strengthen the Oligarch/Theocrat/Fascsit bond.

Please join this organization that does so much good for us and future generations

[Thomas Paine]

Davis wrote:

New Atheists. What does that mean, exactly?

New Atheists are atheists, usually from Western countries who take a “no appologies” approach to critiquing religion, promoting secularism and among many agressively attacking religion. They are different than other atheists in that 1. A New Atheist is more than someone who lacks belief in God. 

I understand that the “New Athiest” assumes a strong  non apologetic stance, with immense effort in refuting Christian Apolgists. I believe it encourages “nones” and others who are questioning their beliefs to escape the grips of religion. I think it is great to point out the absurdity and lack of logic that surrounds religion and all it embraces.

I’ve been thinking about Harris and his Islamic believers = dedicated/motivated terrorist. It seems that the realities are far outpacing his thesis. Since 9/11 the largest terrorists event on U.S. soil were committed by what appears to be “homegrown” members of the Muslim faith. In terms of the hundreds of millions of  Muslim believers this is a statistically indignifificant number.

One could argue that this low statistic is due to interdiction and effort of our Homeland Security people andthere may be some truth to that. However, the FBI and other agencies involved in preventing terrorism seem to have no problem  publicizing all the plots they stop. Even that number added to actual events is again statistically small.

So, yes Harris really put his foot in it when he posited the power of the religion to motivate terrorism.

Simon Paynton wrote:

@ThomasPaine – “It seems to me in looking back through time that these calls for violence are simply using the religion of a people as a powerful psychological lever to gain political ends in addition to the political beliefs.” It seems to me this illustrates the problem of combining Church and State.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>No argument with this statement. The separation of Church and State is why I am a member of AU.</p>

[Thomas Paine]

For some reason I am unable to reply to specific replies, but I’ll just signify by username, and/or reply#

Davis, thank you for your well thought out and measured reply #10262. I am reluctant to interpret Harris as to why the Muslim faith became the priority terrorists as opposed to that of Israeli Jews for their attacks/reprisals against Muslims from several countries. As well, I’m no scholar of any religion. So, I’m going to base my reply based on what I have learned about Wahhabism as a sect of the Muslim faith.

Wahabbist belief is fundamentalist  and requires strict adherence to their interpretation of the Koran. It is a sect that has its origins  in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis have funded and established Madrasas that teach the Wahabbi dogma. That dogma demands that calls for Jihad, be obeyed. Finally, there is redemption for dying in Jihad, a great afterlife replete with lots of willing virgins.

It is certainly true that Christianity widely accepts there is an afterlife foe those who accept Christ, blah blah. However, I don’t recall long tracts in the Bible that require believers to anwer a call to war against those who would attack the faith or that there is a reward in the afterlife for dying a martyr to the cause.

Of course, there are so many (can’t resist) devil in the details to my statement. In numerous instances throughout history Christian leaders from the Pope to the evangelical tent preacher have called for or endorsed war, from the Crusades to the Invasion of Iraq. It is also worth noting that Jihad also seems to function based on a specific holy leader envoking the call.

Harris seems to give far greater power to the dogma of the Muslim faith in generating an almost robotic response among adherents of that faith. I’ve heard him actually formulate a number in that even if only 1% of the Muslim population was to adhere to the call there would be millions willing to sacrifice willingly for the faith.

It seems to me in looking back through time that these calls for violence are simply using the religion of a people as a powerful psychological lever to gain political ends in addition to the political beliefs.

For me Thomas Paine lays out a great Deist logic in “The Age of Reason” that exposes essentially all religion as a con job.

I’ll be back to reply to what the “New Athiest” movement means to me and the conundrums that surround that as well.

[Thomas Paine]

@Davis Thanks Bro from one Athiest to another. There are plenty of shitty sites where one can waste time with Apologists.

[Thomas Paine]

@ Unseen — I’m liking you a lot more as this topic progresses. You are saving me lots of time and energy presenting the work of many good philosophers who have proceeded us.

Thanks

[Thomas Paine]

It pains me to see so much time and energy spent on the possibility that superstition just might be an actual reality.

We could be helping others suffering from the mass delusion that is religion.

[Thomas Paine]

@ Unseen — I agree w/ Krause; there is every reason to believe that something can spring from nothing. There is NO requirement for a higher intelligence to do this.

[Thomas Paine]

OK, Deism evolved during the Age of Enlightment – many Philosophers and thinkers of that age, my favorites include Hume and Thomas Paine, espoused this concept.

Yes, they posited that there as a creator who set up the rules of nature, then gave it a spin, letting it operate under its own steam.

Where they had a grind was with organized religion and all of the bible. The Bible being one giant pile of BS without any proof that a fucking thing in it was little more than untraceable, hearsay, fairy tales and shitty poetry.

If you’ll take the time to read Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason ,even if only a few chapters,you really get a wonderfullly cogent and brilliant argument that far surpasses anything you’ll find on any blog or podcast dealing with disbelief.

That said, I feel that most men of he Enlightenment simply wanted to avoid prison or e en death for being atheists. By disconnecting an activists intervening God from Nature it isn’t a great leap to why do we need a church or religion at all?

[Thomas Paine]

With over 16 million residents, Florida and the easy access to concealed gun permits might serve as a way to correlate increased guns to gun related deaths

http://fcir.org/2013/04/21/as-firearm-ownership-rises-florida-gun-murders-increasing/

[Thomas Paine]

Why those Wall Street Bangstas aren’t hanging by the neck by piano wire from lamp posts instead of being made whole with our tax dollars remains one of the great lost moments to save the world from rampant Capitalism.

Rest assured that the German Government will never be made whole in this austerity move. Especially given that we forgave 50% of their debt from WWII right out of the gate.

[Thomas Paine]

Lars, it’s great having an international flavor to the ZONE — welcome brother in logic and reasoning.

[Thomas Paine]

@ Milton Platt- Well that takes care of that one…

next apologist please

[Thomas Paine]

@ Simon

Obviously morality is morality but there’s morality with or without God, which happen to be the same at heart.

Are we talking about the God who directed his followers to murder every man, woman, and child in every city he directed them to conquer by war? Not just once, but on numerous occasions?

That is not my kind of morality.

[Thomas Paine]

Thanks @ Gallup and Davis for a fine display of good conomic research and critical thinking.

About the time Virgil started to paint Goldman Sachs as being fooled into heping Greece enter the EU was when he went from being misrepresentative to being essentially a right wing propagandist.

The misery, profiteering and criminal greed propagated by GS is the stuff of legend.

Read Griftopia by Matt Taibbi and if you aren’t sickened by the behavior of the finance community world wide then you either profit with them, are a sociopath and more likely than that BOTH.

[Thomas Paine]

@ Ben, Faisal, and Ron — thank you one and all.

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