An Ethical Exercise – What do you think

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This topic contains 76 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Ivy 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 77 total)
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  • #34983

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I mean the religious people, refusing equipment.  Sorry if I was unclear.

    #34987

    Ivy
    Participant

    @Reg –

    Your decision to tell him your religious philosophy in that situation was done so based on your own personal ethical code would you agree? Or would you agree I guess what I mean is that that decision was based on your own ethics.

    Do you think it would have been unethical to bow your head in silence along with the group, knowing full well that it’s a bunch of bullshit, but just as a matter of not making waves in the situation, furthering a good business partnership and “playing the game so to speak?” I recently have been reading and rereading this book called the game of life and how to play. There are some interesting concepts of that book. Many of which actually a line with psychology. But that’s really what this thought exercise is all about. It’s a game isn’t it? And it’s all about how you play…

    #34989

    Ivy – If he had asked me if I had wanted to join them in prayer I would have politely declined. If they had started to talk to their Creator of the Universe I would have just remained silent. But he just started herding everyone together and the women there seemed all enthused by this, which had me singing along with Skin in my head and imagining the 2 of us drinking with Lemmy. If they can so quickly depart from reality then so can I.

    It was his assumption that pissed me off. I don’t attend funerals in churches any more. I visit with people a few weeks later when everyone has moved on with their lives and talk with them when their chaos is replaced with silence. It means more to them then. If I did attend a church service I would be polite and in no way offensive. But I am abhorred by the Catholic Church and its sheeple who are in complete denial of the ongoing crimes against children all over the world. I did my work for the young adults with learning difficulties so they could have a start sooner. But he assumed I was doing it for the glory of his imaginary god and expected me to get on my knees and praise his god and with that my head goes “And you can just fuck off already”. My code of ethics? Yes. But I have no “religious philosophy” just like I have no soul.

    #34994

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Did a little inventory of Catholic crimes and left off children. That is deep.

    #34995

    Ivy
    Participant

    @Reg

    My code of ethics? Yes.

    Yes and that’s really the crux of this discussion. Our own personal code of ethics and where we draw the line with things.

    I have been disgusted, watching the United States these past four years be complicit in all kinds of absolutely horrible things. And we cannot blame it all on Donald Trump. He is the end result of many many deeply disturbing social problems that are not going to go away overnight. Now that the Supreme Court sways Republican (And evangelical), We are going to see ramifications long after Donald Trump at 6 feet under. We are already starting to see it. The Supreme Court recently ruled in favor of religious gatherings in New York during this time of Covid. We see people who claim to be Christians acting in ways that are completely horrible and should be illegal. And what concerns me the most, is the fact that they are actively trying to rip away stability for some of the poorest among the population. The philosophy of Republicans generally speaking is that they want small government. They don’t want to spend money on any kind of social programs or anything. If it was up to them the only thing they would fund is the military. Leave the rest up to the churches. And the churches would trickle down to their own members first. I have seen it firsthand how it all works.

    It makes me super mad.

    There’s a lot of things over the last four years that has made me really mad about the way our society is going. And so I’ll be honest. I’ve played out in my head how it would luck to meet them at their own game. They just want people to come into their doors and be part of their little club, answer those people in need they will help them with strings attached. A lot of the social programs in the area treat people like children. It keeps you enable to a very broken system where you have to report things that are really nobody’s business. Back in 2016, I was trying to work and go to school and manage my son who had the time was having extreme behavioral difficulties. I looked everywhere for answers. All of these so-called social programs were supposed to help me and help him. Turns out they were all actually hindrances to his progress and mine. There were some people who advised me to take all of the services that I could possibly get and not feel guilty about it. So I did. I was constantly looking out for different programs and different assistance that helped me get through a very tough time. But none of it produced a stable, sustainable solution. I remember looking for answers to many of my problems. At the time to be honest with you… The only solution really was to walk to the church for some answers. Sad but true. So I started to think about well… I guess I have to be a believer then right? It doesn’t fit together trying to be part of a church if you don’t believe it. But if you don’t believe it they will treat you differently. And if they treat you differently, you can’t really get that help. Not nearly as much anyway. For me, when the pandemic hit, They paid my rent. No strings attached, but I was already a “member” of the church. I had contributed and participated in enough things that some of the people in leader ship positions knew me by first name. So when thousands of applications came pouring in for handouts, people who have never set foot in there congregation, I made one phone call, they put me at the front of their list and gave me more assistance than I actually asked for. They gave me more than I normally would have. Because they knew me. Why did I join a church? Because it was the only place I could go for the help that I needed. Sad but true. There had been another alternative I would’ve taken it.

    So yeah. I’ve played along. I played the game. And you know what? I can honestly tell you I don’t think there were any other alternatives. Does that mean it’s all true what they say? Does that mean that they believe is the truth? I don’t know. Maybe some of it sort of. Certainly not all of it. Churches are a fallback plan for hard times. In a world where social services are cumbersome, outdated, deeply flawed from a policy standpoint, corrupt, incompetent, and at times- dangerous. My code of ethics? He’s doing whatever I have to do for my son. And he has come away better for it. There are certain things that actually helped him from church. But he sees through the bullshit too. He has been betrayed by many adults. In the school system. In the churches. And by his own father. And at times even me. I failed him at times. What now? He can smell bullshit a mile away. And so can I. I taught him that.

     

    #34996

    garyclouse
    Participant

    To me, there is a common set of social principles that exist outside of religion, yet religious organizations like to claim ownership of these principles, and have having staked those claims, find it completely within their ethical code to apply these principles exclusively to members of their own faith.

    In other words, pretty much every religious person I’ve ever met claim it unethical to lie and cheat, except when  interacting with anyone outside their exclusive sect.  In general I don’t broadcast my lack of religion, I don’t pretend to be religious.

    #34998

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I guess I have to be a believer then right? It doesn’t fit together trying to be part of a church if you don’t believe it. But if you don’t believe it they will treat you differently. And if they treat you differently, you can’t really get that help. Not nearly as much anyway.

    Sounds like a tough dilemma there, Ivy.   It seems like you’ve got the highest level of help a non-believer can get from the church.

    Does not their generosity, even over and above what you expected, show contemporary Christian ethics in a good light?

    #34999

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Does that mean it’s all true what they say? Does that mean that they believe is the truth? I don’t know. Maybe some of it sort of.

    Surely this is why religion continues to have credibility – it is credible to some extent.

    #35000

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @garyclouse – I think you’re talking about common or garden morality.  Who’s to say it’s not ethical, to help in-group members over out-group members?  To reciprocate?

    #35001

    Ivy
    Participant

    @simon Payton

    Surely this is why religion continues to have credibility – it is credible to some extent.

    The credible part in my opinion is the assistance with certain aspects of socialization for children that cannot be gotten in other settings. It was an instrumental part in helping my son grow out of certain behavioral challenges. It really does take a village to raise a child. I could give a long drawn out analysis of the psychological benefits to people as well. Benefits that can be backed up by science. But the root element of what they claim to believe in…I don’t know. I still question whether or not most people actually do believe it. Or are they there for the same reasons I was? Was it unethical of me to be there? To an extent yes. Definitely. I wouldn’t take it back. For me it has been a solid fallback plan in times of emergency. The game of life and how to play…

    #35002

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I don’t think it was unethical for you to be there.  The church was providing community work, after all.  You contributed to the church by all accounts.  All perfectly proper in my opinion.

    #35003

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I think this is one of the most common ethical dilemmas. Decisions made every day by typical people that individually have little impact taken one at a time. Do I take hardcore stands against parts of society or do I just play along for a personal gain? Take the stock markets for example. They are the primary mechanism to make the investor class wealthier and everyone else poorer. I learned to use the markets to my advantage. Buying during hard times when others are forced to sell. Being a green energy advocate, I have also bought the oil price dip and made money on dirty fuels. On the grand scale of things it is nothing. Should I have just have continued to work in a cubicle until my early death, maybe a heart attack in some hallway wearing my corporate badge? I think about it from time to time, but I am not very bothered by my actions and sometimes think fuck it, use them or else you are the one being used. Gotta be practical, there are other battles better for me to fight.

    #35004

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Ivy wrote, it really takes a village to raise a child.

    Conditioning assistance on joining the cult perpetuates the cult. It is a completely selfish and power grabbing move. It gives a village of children to the cult in which priests have a greater field of candidates to choose who to molest and rape. And it perpetuates all of horrors of religion.

    I agree with Robert’s assessment and decision making. It is the institutions and leaders of those institutions that must change. In all likelihood the march of folly will be sustained until the extinction of humanity. If we have any chance we need to cultivate innate intelligence by teaching children to think. Education without training to think is hollow. Being capable of higher math or science is great but it is hollow if it is not accompanied by a general intelligence that is ever critical. Critical citizens will make all religion an anachronism. Candidates like Trump will be laughed off of the stage before they have any power. Let me stop here. Shit i am thinkin aint happenin

    #35005

    Davis
    Moderator

    The credible part in my opinion is the assistance with certain aspects of socialization for children that cannot be gotten in other settings.

    We had a user a few years back who made the same claim. She was a single mother having a hard time with a kid with behavioural problems and got some assistance with the community. I don’t believe it was assistance that couldn’t be found through secular groups, though at least in her case she found it quickly and was hesitant to let go of it just for ideological grounds. I would also say she her atheist/religious beliefs were a little malleable and seemed to be quickly influenced by the company she kept (she waffled between religious and atheist). I didn’t knock her for a second for utilising whatever assistance she desperately needed at the moment. And I’m certain in some environments where the number of religious people are high that religious groups can virtually monopolise the opportunities for “joining a community” but I don’t agree for a second that it is the “only” solution. But from what I remember she was in the North West (Seattle I think?) so it was hardly a particularly religious area. It is a convenient place to meet other families at the time and perhaps temporarily a necessary opportunity (under tough circumstances) but you can certainly find secular alternatives with hit and miss attempts. And I would feel insanely uncomfortable letting my children fester in religious environments.

    #35007

    Unseen
    Participant

    I guess I have to be a believer then right?

    If it’s any consolation, a lot of clergy are nonbelievers. To them, it’s just a job and they go through the motions to keep a roof over their head and food on the table (and in some cases, vulnerable women and children to abuse).

    Many Priests and Ministers Are Atheists

     

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