Chelsea says "I coulda been the champion."

Homepage Forums Small Talk Chelsea says "I coulda been the champion."

This topic contains 61 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Davis 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 62 total)
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  • #51556

    Unseen
    Participant

    2.) Prior to this, did anyone, of any gender, really give a damn about women’s sports? I don’t even here it come up in women’s conversations.

    I think women might say something different. If it never came up in women’s conversations, that’s because it barely existed compared to how things are now, because men wanted to keep them out.

    Well, the U.S. Women’s Soccer Team came up in conversations I was involved in more than a few times. I get to watch women’s pro soccer now and then (the networks don’t make it easy) and I find their games as action-packed and fascinating as the men’s games. There’s very little difference.

    I myself have enjoyed women’s volleyball both indoors and on the beach many times. And I’ll admit part of that enjoyment is due to my heterosexuality.

    Also, girls who seriously compete in sports in high school and college probably continue to follow those sports and certainly they are very interested while they are competing.

    But, are you implying we shouldn’t care because most people don’t? I think there are some missing premises in that argument.

    #51557

    _Robert_
    Participant

    What we need is more inclusion of white guys in pro basketball. It’s a travesty, I tell ya.

    #51558

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Way it is going we gonna need more Americans in NBA.

    #51559

    Unseen
    Participant

    It took a while, but I found a video that demonstrates fairly clearly the skeletal difference that makes someone with a male body a better runner than someone with a female body. Females tend to be a bit knockkneed and males tend to be a bit bowlegged. It turns out that for putting power down on the pavement, you’re far better off being a bit bowlegged.

    I can’t get it to play on my regular browser (Brave browser), but it does work on Chrome.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #51561

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Simon,

    I think women might say something different. If it never came up in women’s conversations, that’s because it barely existed compared to how things are now, because men wanted to keep them out.

    I’m talking about now, when women in sports are more prevalent and visable.

    I just don’t see women or men excited to see women in sports or getting beer and snacks to get together before a big screen to watch women’s sports or trash-tslking to each other about favorite women players.

    There are plenty of men watching women’s volleyball on the beach, but not with any competitive fervor but more out of pruient interest. 🏐🏐 🍑 😋

    Maybe I just haven’t been in the right sporting circles, but these are my observations and no more or less.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum
    #51563

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    But, are you implying we shouldn’t care because most people don’t? I think there are some missing premises in that argument.

    No argument made and no good guys or gals or bad guys or gals. Just an obervation.

    #51564

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Self-servingness is what it is and I hesitate to go so far as calling it sinister.

    But you could say the same about any athlete.

    Do you mean, trans women athletes can seek to use their advantage knowing it’s unfair?  At the moment, they don’t have much choice, unless they want to ban themselves.

    #51565

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Tennis is not even that much of a strength game but there are more than 200 male tennis players who can easily beat the top woman.

    At the height of the Williams boom in 1998, an unofficial game took place in Australia after Serena and Venus claimed that no male player outside the top 200 could beat them.

    Up stepped a German known as Karsten Braasch who was ranked 203rd in the world and after first beating Serena 6-1, he then disposed of Venus 6-2.

    “I didn’t know it would be that difficult. I played shots that would have been winners on the women’s circuit and he got to them very easily,” said Serena.

    I went to high school with Chris Everts’ younger brother, John. He beat Chris regularly, when Chris was the best female tennis players in the world. He didn’t even make it onto the men’s pro tour.

    Chris played trans pioneer Renee Richards.

    “I competed against Renee Richards when she was 43 and was not in shape, as she admitted, and struggled to beat her — and I was ranked No. 1 in the world.”

    Richards said:

    “I think it would be wrong for me to compete” …

    #51566

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Men are better athletes? Clearly. Even in games that involve coordination men excel. Only thing i am aware in which women are perhaps on an equal footing is ultra marathon, the ultimate physical contest.

    So if a man transitions to become a female that person has an advantage competing in sports against women? Yes.

    Should i care? I don’t. And i am not saying it is not an issue for those directly impacted. But consider from the perspective of a trans person. I have known a few people who fit the description. Their lives a living hell. One who i knew best told me not ten minutes go by i don’t think of suicide. He from hard core Christian family and dreaded them knowing who he was.

    Think about how many feel bad about their appearance and get implants or rhinoplasty or some alteration of their body in an effort to look the way they hope to look. Are they searching for their actual identity or succumbing to societal pressure to look a certain way?

    I can only imagine how it feels to KNOW you are male or female and trapped in the wrong body. And as a consequence you do what is necessary to transition. And when you go through with it you KNOW how eyes will be upon you and judgment will rain down. And you will never be treated the same as you were when you were known as a boy or girl. Takes chutzpah.

    When a group that heretofore was denied and discriminated against finally gets legal recognition or attains a place of greater prominance there will be a mighty backlash. Jews shit on upside down for centuries finally get a nation and hope to be safe there and are subjected to a higher standard than all of the humans in the rest of the world. Blacks in USA with civil rights. Women with suffrage. Gay rights. Lepidopterists come out of the closet and look what happens.

    Thus any perceived advantage that inures to the benefit of the looky-here group is jumped on by the others. I assume for some in the in-group it gives a sense of being justified in their looky down at the looky-heres.

    In conclusion the trans-sports issue is so minor and life filled with so many REAL INJUSTICES that it is as nothing to me. If it can be remedied to the satisfaction of all concerned, super duper, just like Gary Cooper.

    #51567

    Davis
    Moderator

    Review of literature showing there is no conclusive evidence transwomen on average have a competitive advantage:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

    This article focusses on transgender youth sports, and the lack of evidence that there is an unfair advantage (at the youth level), the harm it causes, the insidious nature of banning trans athletes to “protect” girls sports with evidence free arguments while doing nothing to promote or invest in girls sports beyond the meagre investment there is. It is more about reacting against trans-athletes daring to compete and break traditional norms than genuinely caring about girls sports.

    Studies have had mixed results in identifying whether transwomen on testosterone reducing treatment have an unfair advantage. Some studies say maybe, others say it is more complicated as other factors are involved. However, if the transition began around the time of puberty, there is no evidence demonstrating trans-athletes have an unfair advantage. This is the policy of some sports bodies, that if the athlete began their transition at around the time of puberty and their testosterone levels are low, they are allowed to compete. This is an example ,and in some sports, the basis of a conversation around whether fairness in adult sports with trans-athletes competing, is possible.

    My conclusion: a concern for fairness is reasonable, a genuine investigation and policies based on the results of these investigations is reasonable.

    The actual dialogue and debate, some policies and laws in regressive states/countries, however, is based much much less on any real concern for fairness and an unreasonable reaction or backlash to trans athletes mere presence in girls/women’s sports, and in some cases, regrettably, a highly conservative and traditionalist reaction (discriminatory and exclusionary).

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #51569

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Well, we can pull up some recent research as well….clearly states the male advantage is “baked-in”.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/

    Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology

    The current IOC regulations allow transwomen athletes to compete if testosterone levels have been lowered to <10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to competition. While this begins to address the advantageous effects of circulating testosterone on athletic performance, it does not take into account the advantage afforded by testosterone exposure prior to transitioning. The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit.

    #51570

    jakelafort
    Participant

    “It is more about reacting against trans-athletes daring to compete and break traditional norms than genuinely caring about girls sports.”

    #51571

    jakelafort
    Participant

    It seems like girls and boys are on a similar plane athletically when very young. But once the testosterone kicks in things change. I remember being afraid of Milly. She would kick the boys up and down and terrorize us.

    #51572

    _Robert_
    Participant

    It seems like girls and boys are on a similar plane athletically when very young. But once the testosterone kicks in things change. I remember being afraid of Milly. She would kick the boys up and down and terrorize us.

    We had a Milly too. What a brute. She would put gum in your hair, and you just had to grin a bear it.

    #51573

    Unseen
    Participant

    Self-servingness is what it is and I hesitate to go so far as calling it sinister.

    But you could say the same about any athlete. Do you mean, trans women athletes can seek to use their advantage knowing it’s unfair?

    I know what sometimes lurks in the hearts of men (meaning mankind). Sure, so that’s exactly what I mean. Unless you want to argue that somehow being trans brings transcendental virtue along with it.

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