Chelsea says "I coulda been the champion."

Homepage Forums Small Talk Chelsea says "I coulda been the champion."

This topic contains 61 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Davis 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 62 total)
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  • #51591

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Trans men started off as women, and trans women started off as men.  They seem like two very different athletic categories.

    #51592

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    They seem like two very different athletic categories.

    What Unseen first said didn’t hit me as obvious either, but I think that what you and Unseen say relate to my point:

    Help make inter-trans (intra-trans?) competitions more common and popular, because trans people deserve to have them. I think that least some trans events would also have built-in, savvy management that could determine what forms of physically “fair” matchups could be agreed upon, without interference from know-it-all outsiders, e.g. idiot politicians.

    #51593

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Not all trans categories are a single category.

    #51594

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Not all trans categories are a single category.

    (I wasn’t finished editing my post before you responded… sorry.)

    In any case, it could be left up to them (and those non-binaries, and so on in any other category) to come together and make those kinds of determinations themselves. With as much additional support from all “outsiders” as possible.

    Edit: Any “scientific data” that might inform a discussion like this is still lacking. Besides experience and any “conclusive” knowledge being subject to outcomes of future athletic matchup events, I’m mainly wishing that the nature of all people’s opinions could be ignored, while the people who would be competing in, and managing such events would just be given support to run the events as fairly as they believe is known, as their beliefs evolve without interference from the legacy “typicals” in society.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  PopeBeanie. Reason: added "Edit:..."
    #51595

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Special category Trans sports?

    Bad idea.

    #51597

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Bad idea.

    Worse than what we have now? I’m all ears.

    #51598

    jakelafort
    Participant

    As to why it is a bad idea…it would draw additional attention and scrutiny of the trans folks. It would be like a freak show. So instead of attaining equality it would be more along the lines of Plessy Ferguson separate but equal.

    A better idea?

    First i would insist on scientific evidence that there is an advantage to those who transition from male to female in sports. If it is true and i assume it is…in mano e mano sports like boxing or tennis just compete and pay the trans person winner out of a transubstantiation fund. The loser gets half the pot and the opportunity to do commercials as an aggrieved non-trans athlete. The other half gets thrown into the pot to subsidize trans athletes.

    In team sports trans athletes are compromised in some manner. In basketball for instance one eye patches to make shooting more difficult. In rugby the trans athlete has to eat a gigantic pasta dinner within 33 minutes of the gun sounding. In soccer the rabid anti trans fans have front row seats to heckle the trans athletes thereby distracting them and compromising their athletic performance.

    #51599

    Unseen
    Participant

    Trans men started off as women, and trans women started off as men. They seem like two very different athletic categories.

    I guess I’ll have to help your imagination a little here. Of course, the proposed trans  category would maintain the male/female gender distinction. Trans males against trans males and trans women against trans women.

    There is a difficulty I can anticipate, though, since the transition isn’t overnight but comes in stages resulting in a spectrum of completeness. I think anyone in an in-between stage would have to wait until their transformation is over before competing against other trans folk. Fair is fair even there. Asking trans women who’ve gone full monty against competitors who are basically male cross-dressers reeks of unfairness, does it not?

    #51600

    Unseen
    Participant

    First i would insist on scientific evidence that there is an advantage to those who transition from male to female in sports.

    I get your hesitations and yet having a separate trans category and seeing what hajppens would be the most conclusive kind of research possible. People wouldn’t need an advanced degree to tell if trans women are at an advantage or trans men at a disadvantage.

    Remember, there are trans men, too, and they are mostly not even interested in competing. Why? One reason is probably that they can anticipate being at a disadvantage on the field, in the court or pitch, etc.

    Duh!

    Finally, and unfortunately (unfortunately), I don’t think there’s any way to remove the invisible asterisk that comes with being a trans person. Bending over backwards too far or too energetically to accommodate them will not make the situation any easier for them, if that is the goal.

    To many of us, it seems as obvious as can be that a man without a penis/testes and taking hormones is a man without a penis/testes taking hormones and should be regarded as enough a woman for most matters that might be described as human rights issues (housing, employment, access to medical care, etc.).

    The big however at the same time, is that most of the same people don’t see being able to compete in sports in whatever category you want as anything even vaguely resembling a human right. These sports are already gender segregated based on the assumption that 99% of participants are physically male or female and that we know males do have advantages in most sports.

    I think as time goes by, sports will be broken down into further categories as more and more afflictions have fixes that go beyond being merely remedial and actually enhance a person’s nature-given abilities. Cyborgian folks, in other words. Someday, runners will run on mechanical legs, shot-putters will throw with mechanical arms, etc. No doubt, these, too, will be people who will have to live with asterisks and compete against each other in their own category or categories.

    #51601

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    As to why it is a bad idea…it would draw additional attention and scrutiny of the trans folks. It would be like a freak show.

    I agree it could be, for a while at least. While as physically and mentally handicapped competitors now have regular events, maybe we could learn from how policies and measurements of “fairness” across diverse memberships were developed. Backlash from conservative policy makers and voters is still a real threat, as we’ve seen from recent politics and myopic traditionalists.

    Jeebus, humanity is a fricken freak show.

    #51603

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    While as physically and mentally handicapped competitors now have regular events, maybe we could learn from how policies and measurements of “fairness” across diverse memberships were developed.

    I think that’s a good analogy regarding fairness in sports.

    #51604

    _Robert_
    Participant

    As to why it is a bad idea…it would draw additional attention and scrutiny of the trans folks. It would be like a freak show.

    I agree it could be, for a while at least. While as physically and mentally handicapped competitors now have regular events, maybe we could learn from how policies and measurements of “fairness” across diverse memberships were developed. Backlash from conservative policy makers and voters is still a real threat, as we’ve seen from recent politics and myopic traditionalists. Jeebus, humanity is a fricken freak show.

    If you look at it from the conservative’s standpoint, the schools are quote-unquote “grooming” kids into being “queer”. Even centrists resent that it’s not enough for some LGBTQ people to be accepted. No, they have to be loved and celebrated. Gay flags adorning workplace cafeterias and parades down Mainstreet USA with hairy butt cheeks protruding from leather chaps. A month of gay pride when sexuality is one’s entire identity. Why are you so proud just because you are gay? Not really some self-achieved accomplishment, but more a random genetic roll of the dice as far as I can tell.

    So, yeah if a subset of the community is gonna constantly push to the extreme, while at the same time be playing the victim card; there will be a negative reaction and push back. Transwomen just annihilating born-females on athletic fields is very easy to dislike. Some of the cruelest people are gonna gain a platform and a megaphone to spew hate. It never fails.

    You know who inadvertently shows people just how wonderful the world of a transwomen can be? People like Fran Blanche.

    She is an incredibly popular science/electronics educator who has been on Youtube blogging for over a decade. Typical comments read like this:

    Fran: you have educated, entertained, and inspired lots of different people. I meet people randomly in my travels that know of and love your channel, and they come from all walks of life. THANK YOU so much for giving us so much! (And, I bet you’re just as cool in real life!) I’ve waited WAAAY to long to get on your patreon. See ya soon over there

    I’ve just realised I’ve missed out on 10 years of a beautiful mind. But the magic of this technology is that catching up is easy.

    Wow, what a great ride so far! Looking forward to the second part…and beyond! Nice to hear the original outro music again as well! You really are a talented musician along with everything else you do! I settled in with my soft tacos, a bottle of Snapple Apple, and a cigar, and had a good ol’ time watching your journey from then to now. You truly are a treasure Fran! Thank you!

     

    #51612

    Unseen
    Participant

    So, yeah if a subset of the community is gonna constantly push to the extreme, while at the same time be playing the victim card; there will be a negative reaction and push back. Transwomen just annihilating born-females on athletic fields is very easy to dislike. Some of the cruelest people are gonna gain a platform and a megaphone to spew hate. It never fails.

    Well said, I don’t make it a point to go to gay pride parades, but a couple decades ago I happened to be in downtown Portland (OR, where I live) and had to contend with one.

    It’s hard to cross a street when a parade is moving along. So, I stood and watched as a car with the local drag show entertainers drove by, which was confusing since I thought drag and gay were two different things, followed by a flatbed slat-sided truck full of gay “bears” wearing little else than leather vests and bare-assed chaps waving at the crowd like this was normal.

    Not the best way to sell that gay is normal. (Which I do believe, BTW.) Heterosexual people may like garterbelt lingerie and handcuffs in the bedroom, but would they show it off in a parade?

    I could see families with children walking away. “I’m here and I’m queer. Get used to it” is good, showing what’s private and/or adults only in public may not be.

    #51613

    Not the best way to sell that gay is normal….

    Many gay men are not happy with these “queer” parades. As Douglas Murray writes in “The Madness of People” there are people who in calling for equality will always include a contingent who mistake exhibitionism for activism.

    It is from this week’s Sunday School Book.

     

    #51614

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Protests, demonstrations, subluxations?

    Like why? I must be an alien…could not picture myself in that situation. Well maybe the latter…

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