Failed Conversion

[JadeBlackOliveParticipant]

I don’t think any of us were ”good” 365 days a year.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

You know me and “that evidence thingy” of mine but I now do think there is definite evidence for both Jesus and Santa.  According to the Bible the stone in front of His tomb was rolled away so He did indeed rise from the dead which means it all must be true. Oh wait, that’s not “evidence” – that’s just an argument!! I can’t believe I fell for that. However I have seen evidence for Santa with my own eyes – not secondhand – and others saw it too. It was one Christmas morning and I checked outside the back door to discover that the carrot and milk we left out for the reindeers were gone. So will one of you with a so called “scientific worldview” explain how that could have happened? And don’t bother to say that the adults did it because I was up before they were. Take that atheists!! I am even more convinced since I had a dream where Mrs Claus appeared to me and told me it was good to be a naughty……..

[JadeBlackOliveParticipant]

The food & drink we left out were always gone too!

I guess Mrs. Claus knows kids better than parents do……

[.Spectator]

RE: You know me and “that evidence thingy” of mine…

Yes and I’m still at a loss as to what you would consider satisfactory evidence.

I have seen more than enough evidence to believe in God. It’s all a matter of perspective I think.

Honestly my atheist stance was crumbling a long time ago. I never quite latched on to it as truly “me.” But when I found my biological parents….not just the fact that I did but the WAY that it happened: I distinctly remember an intuition on the plane to my hometown that Christmas that I was GOING to find them. I didn’t know how but I remember a very vivid feeling of it that I could NOT shake……

I also remember questioning it on TA. Most people said “oh there’s a PERFECTLY reasonable explanation for that!!”…..

Okay…I let it go hesitantly….

Now the SAME FUCKING THING happened with my biological grandmother!!!!! That same “voice” told me the same thing: “It’s time.”…..

That same day I found her. I am skipping out on the details because it is too elaborate of a story. But to me – that voice…..wasn’t me….it was ALL outside of my control. That was God. And no one can ever convince me otherwise. You can’t put that in a test tube and graph it on a pie chart. Sorry.

[David BootsParticipant]

Belle the issue I have is this statement … ‘And no one can ever convince me otherwise.’

The thing is this – it seems you want to believe. Whether you had a premonition or luck or whatever has no real significance whatever. And it does not mean there is a god. And it is not evidence of anything let alone a god.

The fact is humans seem to be the first and so far only animal species that has developed a consciousness allowing them to appreciate just how fragile our existence is.

The first problem with the idea of god intervening in your favour is this… If god intervened for your benefit then he ignored others or actively ruined their lives.

If he favoured you then what did my friend’s 8 year old child do to get his leukemia?

If he favoured you then what did my friend Michael do to get cancer. Michael is from the rabid religious right. He actively proselytizes and wears large anti-abortion buttons on his everyday clothing. His god is everything to him. Michael was given 2 weeks to live on Friday. Should he thank his god for this? When I visit him in hospital tomorrow will he thank god for his cancer? Should his children thank his god for taking away their father?

I think Michael will take solace in his god for the next few weeks. But what thanks will he give to the science and medicine that has done so much to ease his pain and has extended his life this year? My guess is he will take everything science has given  him in his life – light, heating, shelter, entertainment and health and give no thanks to the science that brings him these things.

 

 

• This reply was modified 5 years, 8 months ago by  David Boots.

[StregaModerator]

@Belle. How do you know the voice isn’t the Devil?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

I had the experience one time where me and my best friend had been separated for a while, and unknown to me, she had returned to the country.  One day, I just knew she was going to come round that evening out of the blue, and so I spent all day getting ready, and she duly appeared when I had been expecting, without being told by anyone or anything.

It seems that we can be just linked to some people, in a very spooky way.

[Dang MartinParticipant]

@Belle Rose: You say that you’ve seen more than enough evidence to believe in god. What I don’t get is how you KNOW that it’s evidence of THE specific god in which you believe.

Here’s a best-case scenario for the evidence of a god.

Suppose there’s an event where a being appears before everyone on the planet, and it has the ability to communicate telepathically to everyone at the exact same time, in their precise language. This being then transmits a message: “I am your creator. The everything. I watch over you. I am.”

What do you think would happen?

I think that each person would assign this message as having come from the god in which they hold belief. Christians would view it as proof of Yahweh. Muslims would view it as proof of Allah. Hindus would view it as proof of Krishna, and on down the line.

How would an Atheist view this?

I can’t speak for them all. For me, I would look toward a scientific analysis. That might look like this:

“Recently, a being had shown itself to all of Humanity. It was formless in nature. We have conducted double-blind tests, and have indeed concluded that the telepathic communications have somehow occurred, and that this was NOT a case of mass-hysteria.”

“Christians have declared this event to be proof that their god exists, as has every other religion on the planet. However, this god did NOT reference any religious texts. It made no reference to any specific religion, church, or other item of human construction. Furthermore, the being did not state its name, and was not wearing a name tag.”

“Therefore, while we can honestly conclude that there is a god watching us, we cannot declare that this god belongs to any of the religions that were created by humans, including Christianity.”

So what you can identify as proof of your god can easily be dismissed by others and then be claimed as proof of THEIR god.

[.Spectator]

Okay well if you all think you know better what would be your explanation without a God?

[David BootsParticipant]

Belle what is it that you need to have explained?

There are things we understand completely through science. Some things we understand a bit through science. And other things that we dont understand anything much at all about.

Religion has zero explanatory value. The bible, the koran and any other religious text you care to look at have very little ability to explain even the simplest things. They may reveal some psychological insights into man but not by their intent.

Belle ask yourself this… is it more likely that god forgot to mention in the bible things like – electricity, gravity, light, algebra, chemical elements … and so on. Or the bible is a man made attempt at explaining consciousness?

[.Spectator]

Sorry but that’s not even close to an answer.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

My close friend S. has a habit of saving me from doing the most crazy things, just by being on the telephone with me, or phoning me up 1, 2, 3, 4 minutes before.  This has happened in very unlikely ways, a number of times.  Each time, I was about to do the craziest things; each of those times, I was stopped either because she phoned up (which she hardly ever does) or because I happened to be speaking to her.  The same circumstances, the same person, each time.

[.Spectator]

If someone can give me an alternative explanation that makes sense I’ll consider conceding. My guess is no one can.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I will have some alternative ideas to consider in today’s Sunday School in about 90 minutes under a link called “rational”.

[_Robert_Participant]

So Belle, If you were on a jury and I was the defendant who raped a girl because god told “now it’s time” and I just knew what to do, you would find me innocent right? And if a Hindu family reconnects somewhere in India, a very emotional and spiritual experience for them…was it your god or their monkey god that did it?

And while god was talking to you several children died in their praying parents arms. I understand you wanna believe, but to me it’s as weak as any evidence I have ever heard.

If there was a shred of evidence that would hold up in any municipal court, I would believe, but it never happens..Stories of some lepers cured 2000 years ago. Well guess what, science really did cure us of the disease.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by  _Robert_.

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