I'm getting sick of hearing about #metoo

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This topic contains 103 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 2 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #7003

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    A reputation is what others think of a person, and that’s entirely up to them.  So, if the world doesn’t like a groping boss, the world doesn’t like a groping boss.

    #7004

    .
    Spectator

    But Simon, this could happen to any man. It seems like all a woman has to do now is make an accusation and it ruin somebody’s life. That’s really not a good system to have. I know a lot of men who could easily be come a victim that way. And that’s not fair. There is a reason why for a person to become a legit Criminal it has to be proven Beyond A Reasonable Doubt in a court of law. So that this kind of s*** doesn’t happen. So you can’t just say something that happened and then that person suddenly is guilty. But that’s the culture and the climate that the me-too movement is creating at the moment. It’s not good. Because we need men to be empowered too. We need men to be able to stand up and talk about these issues. I’m afraid that it’s actually silencing them.

    #7005

    .
    Spectator

    Men need to be able to stand up and talk to other men about sexual violence. I really think that’s the only way it’s going to change. I think it has to become a men’s movement not a women’s movement. I really believe that because men don’t listen to women. It’s like me trying to tell my ex-husband something. He doesn’t respect me so he won’t listen. But if another man tells him he’ll definitely pay more attention because it’s coming from a man

    #7006

    .
    Spectator

    I also think there needs to be an environment where men feel safe to really truly be honest. I really don’t think the me-too movement is allowing men to be honest. I think that honestly a lot of men really don’t know what they do and how it affects women. I think a lot of men don’t know how to act like gentlemen. Especially if they were never taught. So I think that if we’re talking about real change here, I think men need to be allowed to talk about the problems they really truly have about keeping their hands to themselves. And I just don’t think that by having a bunch of accusers come out like this it does much. I know a lot of men who have done things to me and hurt me, but they’re not bad people. They’re not all bad. Nobody is really all bad. I mean I guess some people are but honestly even if you look at men who are in prison, what you typically find is that they themselves came from a bad home. They themselves were victims. They themselves were also abused. And then they grew up just replicating what they were taught. When you really get down to it, a lot of these men just don’t know. It is a matter of Education. And the ones that do know are probably the ones that just don’t care. If they’re Taking Liberties knowing that it’s wrong then that’s a really different issue altogether. That’s the issue that they feel entitled. And that too is created by Society. So we really have to look at this thing I think from a man’s perspective if it is men who are going to be making changes. And I do think that women play a huge role in this too. I think we need to stop playing the victim card all the time and be honest about our role in this. I think the pendulum has swung too far to one side to where women are just seen as helpless blameless victims. I’ll be the first to tell you that when I look back at my life, I am most definitely have played a role in my victimization. Even when I was young. Even as a kid. I just didn’t really know better. But I still play the role. That’s why I kept happening and kept happening… so I don’t want to live like that anymore. I don’t like being told that if I admit it was my fault that I am wrong in doing so. By taking ownership and responsibility for my actions I’m able to be honest with myself. And I don’t see me too doing that. It’s just making this whole US versus them mentality between men and women. I just don’t think it’s right. And yeah it really makes me mad because it’s getting worse and worse and worse. But like I said honestly I don’t care if somebody wants to rape me rape me. Somebody wants to touch me touch me. I don’t care anymore I’m done. But I do care about what happens to my son when he gets older. I don’t want to him to grow up in a world where he is automatically put under a light of Suspicion for every little thing where his entire world could be turned upside down by allegation.

    #7007

    Daniel W.
    Participant

    Bellen, what you say shows a lot of insight.  I suspect in the long run, it will run its course.

     

    A long time back, there was a movement regarding sexual abuse of children in daycare centers.  Experts said, kids never lied.  It turned out some was true, but also that social workers had influenced children into telling stories about sexual abuse that were not true.  Then it all blew over and was lost from cultural memory.  I dont recall all of the details, but it feels like something lie that.  The truism was children never lied about sexual abuse.  Then it turned out there were lies, albeit led on by adults.  There were repercussions  Then most people seem to have forgotten.  Except those who were falsely demonized.   https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria

    I know #metoo is different, but it feels like there is that attitude of mass moral panic, and we should believe every accusation, and never believe the accused.  It also makes it feel like women are always helpless victims, which I think you discussed very well.

     

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by  Daniel W..
    #7009

    .
    Spectator

    When I was first told it was all my fault at first I was offended. But I realized it was true. It may not be a very politically correct thing to say and a lot of people don’t like hearing it, but it was good for me to hear that. It was good for me to be told that I was in the wrong. It was my fault and that I needed to change. I don’t think I ever would have snapped out of it if that hadn’t happened. I’m glad and the thing is it really makes me mad. It makes me mad because I wish somebody had told me sooner. I wish the people hadn’t just always said oh it’s the man’s fault. He’s the one that’s at fault in your not. I think that actually did more damage than good because it kept me just pitying myself instead of looking at myself honestly.

    Now that I looked at myself honestly and I see who I really am, I can at least be honest and I don’t have to worry anymore. I could probably go on for days about all the s*** that’s happened to me. But if I’m honest about every single one of them I played a role myself. Even when I was a kid, I was molested every single day but I still showed up for it. I still went back and went back and went back. I felt a lot of guilt for a long time, but the truth is that it was my fault. And then it was confusing when people said it wasn’t my fault because it felt like it was.

    It would have been much better how people said yeah it was your fault, but here’s how you can change to where it doesn’t happen again. Anytime I went to see therapists they always told me that I was a victim. But they never asked me what I did to contribute. That wasn’t ever on their radar as a possibility. It was just assumed that everything that ever happened to me if it was not consensual then it was not my fault. I really just think we have to be honest and admit that that is misguided too.

    I think we have to start telling women the truth. But they are not helpless blameless victims, and that they do have power. Putting them in the victim’s role automatically like a blanket statement really takes away from being able to analyze things critically and be honest with each other. I know that every single time I was hurt and raped and beaten there was a part of me that liked it. Nobody ever talks about that. Nobody ever talks about the fact that it does feel good when you’re being raped even if it’s just a little bit. And that it actually makes you feel powerful when it’s all said and done you get to make your police report and tell the story and get sympathy and attention for it… And then you get to play the victim for a while. Get all kinds of help and so-called agencies that can step up to the plate for you.

    But it never goes to court. Because in the court of law they look at both sides. They do hold you accountable for your part in it. And if you’re associated with the person and going along with things even in a little way then it’s not Criminal. They’re not going to prison because you can’t prove Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that a person truly raped you. There’s this one time where I was pretty brutally sodomized. He forced his dick in my mouth and threw me down on the bed and f***** me so hard I couldn’t breathe. I almost lost consciousness because he’s pressing my face down so hard and I couldn’t push myself up. I barely got enough air through the pillow covers to be able to breathe a little bit. People would tell me that’s rape. But at the same time I was drunk as f*** and I went into his apartment to stay the night. What the f*** was I expecting? But nobody would actually say that out loud. Why didn’t I just call a cab? Or why did I even go out with him to begin with? Why didn’t I do something when I saw him snort a line of coke? Why didn’t I see the signs and back out?  the honest answer is because I knew what was coming and just let it happen.

    I think as instinctual beings we know these things when they’re coming a lot of the time. I knew in the club the way he was talking to me On the way we were drinking together. We were both drunk and I had no business driving. And trying to stay at his house  because I had no way to get home, yeah that was true. but I also knew what he wanted.  so that was my fault. Not his.  but most conventional wisdom would tell you that it was his fault.

    It was my fault. I think Oprah Winfrey is the one person that I have heard say it openly and honestly. But when your molested or raped, it feels good. It does I mean any dick that’s inside me feels good. It just does. and even if I’m fighting against it cuz I don’t want it,  I’ve learned that once you relax and just let it happen it’s not so bad. Just let him do it. It’s really the easier way to go. you can lay in bed and cry later.  Because trying to fight back there’s really nothing you can do to stop it anyway.  It’s just part of being female but somehow we think that to say that out loud it’s wrong.  what we say as a society and what actually happens in real life are two completely different things no.

    We need to be honest if we’re going to ever change anything at all. And I think women need to start talking openly about the fact that  we’ve started to enjoy victim-hood a little too much. There are women out there who get truly raped in a brutal fashion that they don’t ask for. That changes their lives forever.  those are the people who need our attention. Not people like me. People like me… Women like me aren’t worth the time of day.

    I don’t know if I was ever truly raped or not or if I was just asking for it every single time. I don’t know. I just know that what I see isn’t right and I don’t like it. I think that when I was a kid I was taught to like it.  I think that honestly  I’m really f***** up in the head.

    #7010

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    Reg, that’s the book and it was old in 1973 when I read it. Teachers and others who want to help people are its intended victims.

    Bellen, I’d been an agnostic since 1957 and in 1973 was no longer saying, “Oh my god really?” I reacted with something like “Damn! Berne wrote that about me!”

    To whom it may concern, I wasn’t implying; I was saying.

     

    #7011

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    Reg, AZ is a discussion forum. WDYYB is a competition and has winners and losers.

     

    #7012

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @belen – “this could happen to any man. It seems like all a woman has to do now is make an accusation and it ruin somebody’s life.

    – I’d say it very much depends on the accusation, and also, the general behaviour of the man.  There was a case in the UK recently where a young guy was being accused of multiple rapes by the same woman, who turned out to be a complete liar.  He very nearly went to jail, because the police couldn’t be bothered to do their work properly, or maybe they’re just under-resourced.  But at the last minute, all this exonerating evidence came out and he was saved from a 12 year sentence.

    So, an unproven rape allegation is pretty much likely to stick, no matter what.  On the other hand, something less serious is not necessarily going to have the same effect, and I think it would be pretty easy for the man to prove his innocence.  This is because, an innocent person tends to act like one, and likewise, a guilty person.  They tend to have characteristic behaviour, for one thing.

    #7013

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @tomsarbeck – how about you let it drop.

    #7014

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @belen – “I’m afraid that it’s actually silencing them.

    – it may look like that to you, but I don’t believe it’s true.  I believe it’s encouraging men to learn some manners.

    #7015

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    Reg, the exploitation game I enjoy most involves power.

    As an organization’s president I  can exploit its members and they can exploit me.

     

    #7016

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @belen – “I don’t know if I was ever truly raped or not or if I was just asking for it every single time.

    – it’s good that you make these points.  I think what usually happens is that a vulnerable child who is hungry for love and attention is very easy to manipulate into getting abused.

    And trying to stay at his house because I had no way to get home, yeah that was true. but I also knew what he wanted.

    – it was still wrong of him to do what he did.  All he had to do was be nice.

    #7017

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    It might be an error to write this after skipping a few pages of a big, fast-moving convo, but I have an appointment at noon, so here goes…

    Just a perspective here, that there are still a lot of unspoken perspectives out there on this topic. There is a history of abuse that’s been untold, and I think we may be seeing some attention-getters ranting, but there are also a significant percentage of truly troubled women with good reason to feel like they finally have a “safe” time to spill out some long-hidden emotions.

    I also agree that a lot of men aren’t jumping in to the conversation to make it a two-way conversation, but I’ve seen men quietly speaking about it amongst themselves.

    So I don’t think it’s all useless or negatively triggering, even (and I’m not sure if it is nor not) if it’s mostly a negative conversation.

    And yes, it’s our ‘first world problem’, because the level of abuse is much higher in other parts of the world, and so I have to think of it as a separate, real problem, even higher in severity.

    #7018

    .
    Spectator

    There is a history of abuse that’s been untold, and I think we may be seeing some attention-getters ranting, but there are also a significant percentage of truly troubled women with good reason to feel like they finally have a “safe” time to spill out some long-hidden emotions.

    It’s been safe for women to express their emotions. Honestly it seems like there’s been an overabundance of allowing women to express their emotions and not enough accountability to hold men to the same standard. Men are allowed to shirk back and talk among themselves with their beer Buddies. But men are never given or trusted with the role of actually taking the lead. For all the religious nut jobs they say that men are the head of the home and supposed to be the providers in the protectors. But they’re not providing and they’re not protecting. Nobody’s calling them out on it. So they’re obviously not doing what God told them they were created to do. Nobody’s holding them accountable. They’re not required to step up to the plate and take a stand. Why? Again I think it’s because they just don’t care. I don’t think they really truly honestly care enough. It’s not that important to them. Because it doesn’t cost them anything.

    I actually think a lot about where I grew up and how many are there. You know something that’s really funny. My uncle’s are telling me to not get involved with Mexican men anymore. That Mexican men are bad news. What they don’t realize is that white men are just as bad. It doesn’t matter where you come from in the world. It matters how your mom and dad taught you how to treat a woman. That’s what matters and if little boys don’t have dads teach them the right way they’re going to grow up to be assholes.

    I teach my son as much as I possibly can how to treat a woman. But when he sees his father yell at his mother that sends a stronger message don’t you think? Men have all the power but they use it in all the wrong ways. And where they could be powerful they stay silent and just kick back. Drink a beer with their buddies and tell more dirty jokes. Women are the ones that are always trying to do the fixing. But you can’t change people. People have to want to change. I love these men who are disrespectful to women got that way because they were taught how to be that way. We need to focus on the next generation of men.

    You know I’ve been looking for a strong male Mentor for my son for over a year. Someone who were not related to just a man. Someone is willing to invest time and him and teach him how to be a man cuz his dad’s not doing the job. I finally found one. He cost 60 bucks an hour. He’s a damn good coach and his childhood is similar. He has a lot in common with my son. I’m very proud and happy that I found him. But you know how many men I asked before I finally got to him? Men in the church, man out of the church. Men in education. Men all over the place. Men just weren’t willing to step up. It will cost them too much to go out of their way. I even asked a man who struggled with not being able to have babies with his wife. He doesn’t have the ability to have his own son, so here you go here’s a little boy that will love to throw a ball with you. He wouldn’t do it. Too busy. Too many other responsibilities to care. That’s fine, whatever. It wasn’t that important to him.

    But you know that’s where the problem is. Too many men are just too busy to really care that much about the impact they could be having on the world.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer. Reason: just made a few paragraphs to make it easier to read. Hope you don't mind
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