Is gender studies a fraud?

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This topic contains 78 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 1 week, 2 days ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 79 total)
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  • #32469

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @davis – it’s unfortunate then, that these dogmatic ideologues give the rest of gender studies a bad reputation.

    #32470

    _Robert_
    Participant

    It comes down to a single question in my mind:

    Should society strive for equal opportunity or for equal outcome (skewed opportunity based on groupings)?

    #32471

    Davis
    Participant

    @simon. This is the case in all studies. What is a shame is that some people specifically try (and to some degree succeed) in discrediting an entire field of study by showcasing the terrible few. I don’t see it happening with fields like history or psychiatry (and there are MORE than enough examples in psychiatry to easily play that game).

    If anything it is very telling that people focus so much on gender studies, LGTBQ+ issues, black studies etc. It basically tells us that the world still isn’t really ready to seriously engage with these topics. If it were, we wouldn’t find ourselves in such a lopsided situation.

    #32472

    Davis
    Participant

    Equal opportunity is only possible when HR department heads no longer suffer blatant discriminatory practices or unconscious biases to the point where they are more likely to hire a straight white man than any other even when the other is more qualified. Enough studies have been done to show that when pictures or minority identifying names are clearly given an HR officer is more likely to select a white man than a non-white man or a women even when the other candidates are exceptionally more qualified. This happened when ethnic names were obvious, a person had clear exotic religious symbols (a turban, a muslim looking man with a long beard) or a name was clearly a womans name. When one investigation was held (multiple times) where candidates had totally ethnically and gender ambiguous names (Chris, Pat, Jamie) the best qualified candidate was selected. When images and gender clear names were provided white men were selected far above any reasonable answer other than unconscious bias (or possibly blatant discrimination). There are many forces that drive this such as simple custom (an office that is simply male dominated and the norm has always been to hire men) or worse a “good ole boys club” that would find adding a woman uncomfortable. The percieved ease in just hiring someone who fits in. The idea that a certain candidate is more reliable. These things happen despite officers even being women themselves and trained in identifying biases.

    It’s no different with politics. Just because there’s been a few notable female politicians doesn’t mean the playing field is remotely leveled.  In religion you can just forget about it where in some religions women aren’t even allowed through the doors. This has a larger effect as the fact that important leadership jobs are dominated by men enforce the idea that they ought to be.

    The same is the case with LGTBQ+ people. Male candidates who are particularly effeminate or flamey or female candidates who are butch have a harder time finding work, even when qualified. I have LGTBQ+ friends in traditionally masculine roles (a military police, a local police, a national level football team in an EU country, a security guard, a high level salesman, in a construction company) and those in higher levels have never come out of the closet there beyond closest trusted friends. They may find some acceptance at an entry or mid level but fear (and rightly so) that they may lose opportunities to advance to a managerial position if they are out. That is extremely sad. I mean come on, not a SINGLE EU national level football player is out of the closet despite the fact that statistically there must be hundreds of them and we supposedly live in an LGTBQ+ accepting society. What does that tell you. Not a SINGLE player. Ditto currently for the NHL, NBA, NFL.

    So no…equal outcome is a ridiculous goal. Removing the barriers is a very reasonable one. Its a difficult thing to do when people refuse to believe those barriers exist.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Davis.
    #32475

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I agree, equal opportunity. So who dominates the HR field? Could it be KAREN !!!!

    I kinda feel sorry for all the nice Karens out there. And a whole generation of guys named Dick.

    #32476

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen, how about Georgia O’Keefe? A lot of what you point out is a result of opportunity.

    She’s a better example, perhaps, but are her paintings really on a par with the average painting by Rembrandt, Vermeer, or Van Gogh? Not in my book. They are kind of decorative more than anything. Great craft vs. great art.

    #32477

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen, why do intellectual charlatans do and say stupid things? I could ask the same about Jordon Peterson. Or post-modernist philosophers. Or nobel prize winning scientists who become believers in alternative medicine. Because they have an agenda that overrides their ability to use reason and critical thinking. The point is, they represent a minority fringe view. It is irrelevant to actual rational arguments that the majority make. I agree it is useful to refute them, but it is absolutely poisonous to SHOWCASE them, and as Jordon Peterson does and a large number of alt-right and ultra-conservative and anti-feminist people do, try to paint feminism, gender-studies and most progressive studies as “nothing but such charlatans”. I mean, that is just as intellectually repugnant as the work the charlatans we are criticizing do.

    Are you talking about “intellectuals” like those who set such a low bar for “rape,” for example, that if a hetero couple have drinks and then have sex, the female being awake and alert, somehow the male is committing a rape?

    #32478

    Unseen
    Participant

    It comes down to a single question in my mind: Should society strive for equal opportunity or for equal outcome (skewed opportunity based on groupings)?

    Shades of Vonnegut’s Handicapper General whose job it was to make sure nobody got any sort of advantage, no matter how well earned.

    #32479

    jakelafort
    Participant

    No, Unseen, they’re not on a par.

    I think you can make same claim about authors as composers and artist…oh and perhaps scientists. However sexism throughout history of western civ is so outstanding that the only fair comparison is between contemporary artists, composers, authors and scientists.

    #32480

    Davis
    Participant

    Unseen you seem to think that rape is exclusively committed by a male against a female. That is not the case. Any sexual act where one party doesn’t consent is rape. Yes, we live in a time now a days where it is highly recommended you have clear consent from both parties. That is by far the safest route both for the other partner (who for a myriad of reasons may not communicate their unwillingness to have sex) and for yourself. Yes, it takes away some of the romance. Too bad. I would prefer that there be no more cases of a partner unwillingly going through a sex act because of their inability, inhibition or fear of saying no…than for someone to be inconvenienced by having to ask a partner if they are okay with what they are about to do. Get over it. Just ask if they are cool with what’s happening. It takes one second out of your life. Then you need not worry about anything.

    I also don’t know of any cases where both parties were equally drunk and the female was awake and vivid and consented to sex and yet the other party was charged with rape. Do you? If that is the case then it is an extreme example. The overwhelming majority of cases I know involve one partner (yes both male and female) so intoxicated they don’t even remember what happened) who were forcibly fucked. Unless it is part of an elaborate well set up sex role play, then it is undeniably rape.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Davis.
    #32482

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    it is absolutely poisonous to SHOWCASE them, and as Jordon Peterson does and a large number of alt-right and ultra-conservative and anti-feminist people do,

    But this is a special kind of nonsense, unique on its own (claiming that gender is 100% culturally constructed).  So that’s why it is highlighted and showcased.

    I agree too that it gives ammunition to the enemies of feminism.  People on the alt-Right etc. love to seize on this kind of thing, and people on the Left presumably suffer from having to work amongst it.

    #32483

    Davis
    Participant

    The fact that people with an agenda desinged to keep the unbalanced status quo when it comes to men and women, that they love to seize on something post-modernists say and warp it beyond all proportion tells us more about them than what they are criticizing. That gender is 100% cultural is extreme. That it is 0% cultural is extreme. Only imbecilic fringe idiots take either such an extreme view. Who cares about them? Does anyone want to take someone seriously when only other extremists are the only people who do?

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Davis.
    #32485

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen you seem to think that rape is exclusively committed by a male against a female. That is not the case. Any sexual act where one party doesn’t consent is rape.

    No, I don’t think that at all. However, it seems to be what a lot of feminists think. If a hetero couple, both having had drinks and both conscious and able to participate consensually (even if the consent is in the form of participation rather than explicitly verbal), somehow they seem to think that only the male is the responsible party. In other words, women are to be thought of as children and intellectually unequal to men. I would seem to be the one arguing for full equality where responsibility is an attribute of males only, according to some feminists.

    If your point had to do with “What about same sex encounters?” Obviously, the feminists won’t have a view on that sort of thing, if they belong to the war between the sexes, if they can put a man on the moon why can’t we put all of them there variety.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Unseen.
    #32486

    Unseen
    Participant

    Simon, that quote you’re attributing to me was actually Davis who I was quoting.

    #32487

    Unseen
    Participant

    The fact that people with an agenda desinged to keep the unbalanced status quo when it comes to men and women, that they love to seize on something post-modernists say and warp it beyond all proportion tells us more about them than what they are criticizing. That gender is 100% cultural is extreme. That it is 0% cultural is extreme. Only imbecilic fringe idiots take either such an extreme view. Who cares about them? Does anyone want to take someone seriously when only other extremists are the only people who do?

    Extremists?

    “Ninety-five percent of women’s experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive… women didn’t go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo. Jodie Foster, quoted in The New York Times Magazine” Because being excused from combat defines women as victims of oppression? Non sequitur or is there a point in there somewhere?

    “As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women…he can sexually molest his daughters… THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE. Marilyn French” Men apparently have a form of original sin, so it’s okay to pre-judge the male gender.

    “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race. Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female” If she were talking about blacks, whites, Native Americans, that would clearly be a racist statement.

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