Is gender studies a fraud?

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This topic contains 78 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 2 months, 4 weeks ago.

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  • #32341

    Unseen
    Participant

    How can someone get a degree in gender studies while knowing nothing about the biology of male and female?

    • This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    #32432

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Interesting.  But they are only talking about a very narrow field I think.  Science as a whole distinguishes between male and female.

    #32433

    Unseen
    Participant

    Interesting. But they are only talking about a very narrow field I think. Science as a whole distinguishes between male and female.

    But gender studies can’t pretend to be a science. It looks at science in a very selective way.

    #32434

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Well, I can barely make head nor tail of gender studies, and I don’t want to.  But if many gender theorists state that we are blank slates, and gender is culturally constructed – other areas of science say that that’s only half the story, and there are innate biological differences.  What those differences are, may be different to what culture tells us.

    For example, culture may tell us that “women should stay in the kitchen” and the reason given is that this is what they are innately suited for.  But science says no such thing.

    #32435

    No, gender studies is not a fraud. Last summer I was going to get a new tattoo on my upper back. I went down stairs and handed my girlfriend a disposable razor. In a really deep “ape man” voice I said “It puts cream on back and shaves me”.  Afterwards I said, in a very soft voice “One is most obliged”.  She told me to “f**K off out of it”.  So we both changed roles in the space of 5 minutes.

    #32436

    Unseen
    Participant

    We are the only great ape or mammal who isn’t born with a natural gender but have to wait to be educated as to how a gender behaves? Okay, how does one apply that to a gender-confused person without fixing blame on their parent/s?

    #32437

    Davis
    Participant

    Simon I love the way you can just dismiss an entire study, of which you know next to nothing and have made no effort to get to know further. From what you’ve said, it’s clear that the extent of your knowledge of gender-studies is parroting the kind of bullshit Jordon Peterson says.

    Gender studies is useful in countless ways. For one it studies the history of gender roles which is fairly important because the documentation of history has been done almost entirely from a male perspective and it is useful to know, what little we can gleam from the few sources left over time, how women fared in history. The same goes for things like medicine, which until recently, with the exception of things like pregnancy, has been studied entirely from a male perspective. One thing that gender studies has done is bring light to this and help force the implementation of medicine departments that focus on medicine from a woman’s perspective, because until recently, the model was entirely males. Gender studies have helped bring to light issues that have been well burried deeply under the carpet through silence and taboo such as the huge prevalence of sexual harassment and assault, domestic violence and other abuses. It also highlights things like gender wage-disparity, which people go to absolutely incredible lengths to explain away because of “maternity leave” which is total nonsense. It cannot possibly explain how two workers who are +50 who do the same job, same productivity make different salaries (systematically one gender more than another). It also studies how gender roles have changed over history, how gender has been portrayed in art.

    And of great interest recently, the very concept of gender which in the past was once seen as fluid (transgenderism was not particularly controversial in some past times and in other parts of the world) and a great deal of study has been done and is being done on the relationship between sex and gender.

    It is true, there are some pockets of gender studies full of post-modern idiots. As is the case in philosophy and history. It is also the case in science where some dig a deep hole in string theory and cannot get out who spout aboslute rubbish. People like the guy you have an intellectual hard on for (Jordon Peterson) takes great delight in singling out these charlatans and then painting an entire picture of a subject, such as gender studies as nothing but that. He is such an intellectual-fraud, and so tiring that some of us have to spend our time countering the stupid ignorance that this asshole spreads. How anyone can be familiar with gender-studies and yet call the whole field a confusing waste of time is beyond me. Only someone who purposefully has a snake-like agenda would. Yes, we have to call out the post-modern bullshit, I do. As I do in philosophy. The only reason Peterson can so easily dismiss it is because it’s easy to not give a shit about a subject that tends to focus on things that he is both so uninterested in (gender norms that conflict with his conservative-religious view and the problems that the female gender face which he denies).

    #32438

    _Robert_
    Participant

    ‘Boys Don’t Cry’ is a great song by ‘the cure’ that illustrates how society tries to shape distinguishing gender attitudes and behaviors. Generations of parents wanted their kids to be ‘normal’ heterosexuals that fulfill traditional gender roles to avoid religious-based stigmatism. Western religions moralized the statistical norms of human sexuality and gender, unfortunately.

    I agree with much of what the original feminists claim and I could forgive 2nd wave feminists for lots of bullshit claims on female superiority. But normal men certainly do not wish harm upon women and are not ‘toxic’. There is no ‘conspiracy’ to keep women down. Women are just as responsible for the inequalities as men. Their answers are in the mirror. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    #32439

    Unseen
    Participant

    ‘Boys Don’t Cry’ is a great song by ‘the cure’ that illustrates how society tries to shape distinguishing gender attitudes and behaviors. Generations of parents wanted their kids to be ‘normal’ heterosexuals that fulfill traditional gender roles to avoid religious-based stigmatism. Western religions moralized the statistical norms of human sexuality and gender, unfortunately. I agree with much of what the original feminists claim and I could forgive 2nd wave feminists for lots of bullshit claims on female superiority. But normal men certainly do not wish harm upon women and are not ‘toxic’. There is no ‘conspiracy’ to keep women down. Women are just as responsible for the inequalities as men. Their answers are in the mirror. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    Maybe everybody should butt out and trust nature. Some of us know we are guys and we have the reactions our reptilian brains give us to a shapely rump on a female (or on a male if we are gay). And whatever the corresponding reactions are for females.

    But plainly, there is a slice of the feminist pie that doesn’t trust nature and thinks it can be wrong when it comes to gender.

    And how does one explain gays and lesbians, almost all of whom that they cannot remember being otherwise? Did their gender education go awry or, worse, was it perverted by bad teachers.

    Surely gender deserves to be a topic for study, but not by politicos.

    #32440

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @davis – makes sense.  I knew it had to be about something, since gender has such a big effect in various areas of life.

    But normal men certainly do not wish harm upon women and are not ‘toxic’. There is no ‘conspiracy’ to keep women down.

    I see it as like the fabled “white privilege” – it’s not that individuals are necessarily oppressing each other.  It’s more that society is systemically racist / sexist.  Males and white people benefit from the way that society is set up.

    ‘toxic’

    I think that toxic masculinity means things like wife-beating, and general boorish arrogance at the expense of females.  Obviously, most men are not like this.  But arguably, this is largely because of feminism.

    But plainly, there is a slice of the feminist pie that doesn’t trust nature and thinks it can be wrong when it comes to gender.

    It seems clear that gender is both innate and cultural.  I think the cultural aspect is a product of society, which is different from individual make-up.  In other words, in this case, one major factor is the Patriarchy which places males and females in predetermined roles, for the benefit of males.

    There is an interesting-looking book by Steven Pinker: “The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature”.  I see that it’s cheaper on amazon.co.uk than on amazon.com.

    #32443

    _Robert_
    Participant

    @simon,

    I guess Western women aren’t privileged enough to comprise half the roofers, sewage workers or get cut down by machine guns. Instead they choose to make a living just shaking their asses in a multitude of ways by the millions. The women I know demand that their husbands make way more than they do. How is that supposed to work? Where is the equality? Men are walking paychecks to the divorce industry. Huge granite kitchens and they don’t cook. Talk about privilege. Yet feminists will give a free pass to brown people who absolutely enslave women.

    #32444

    Davis
    Participant

    Many women don’t do these jobs because they are difficult to get into (the HR staff won’t hire women) and those who do manage to secure those jobs face an extremely toxic working environment (much worse than the men already face) full of sexual harassment, an extremely antagonistic environment, no end to vicious constant sleazy comments, disparagement and even being put in dangerous situations. In cases where women do face less obstacles (for instance say in the police force of more liberal cities) you’ll find that their numbers are relatively high. Yes, women are quiet capable of and even willing to do tough jobs, if they would be allowed to do so in peace.

    As for men making more money, several women have admitted they prefer to be in relationships where the man makes more money as they face less tension and social problems re: the general social conditioning that the man provides and makes more money. As in: it creates less resentment from the male side if she makes less money. That doesn’t mean they WANT to make less money but feel they have to choose between a lower salary or relationahip problems. It is, if anything, terrible they have to make that conscious choice. Not to mention in many cases where even if they had the same job and did the same work with the same productivity, statistically the man would be more likely to make a higher salary anyways.

    #32445

    _Robert_
    Participant

    My views may be skewed as I worked in engineering and eventually as a manager of engineering teams. A female engineer was the coveted unicorn, a Hispanic female engineer was a golden unicorn. I had one under my charge. She may have gotten a good 1/2 hr of work done a day, but she sure was adept at talking about work during her average 32 of the 40 hr expected work week. When lay-off time came I was given a list of untouchables. Of course she was on that list. Another female engineer, not under my charge filed a charge with HR against one of my best engineers, a white male. He confronted her after checking her work and found she skipped over quality tests that she didn’t know how to run. He should have come to me first, yes. She said he was ‘offensive’ to her. That was enough for the HR dept. and my engineer was put on probation (she was moved to a different job with no ramifications.) He gave notice immediately. I was helpless to save him. There was one female engineer whose husband was a social worker and made less money than her. At every social event he was typically referred to as a loser or ‘bum’ by her and her friends.  Back in the 80s, I had female coworkers who were respected hard workers. I would say the radical shift toward preferential treatment occurred in the mid 90s for large-cap US high tech companies.

    #32446

    jakelafort
    Participant

    None of what Robert says about women is an indication that on balance women are not up against it. Suffrage movement should not have even been a thing. Some very tough women in that movement who lost their lives for the cause. Earn less for same work. Proved themselves during WW2 by doing traditional male’s work. In Israel females have to serve in the military. Women may be scarce in engineering because of the expectation that they do not have high science/math aptitudes. I think that is changing however. Women are so much more subject to sexual harassment on the job than men are. Women do more of the SHIT work at hospitals and nursing homes. And if you ever observe closely it is truly shit work and often not very well compensated. Just cuz some blacks have benefited from affirmative action does not mean that the playing field on balance has been equal. I am rambling like Trump does. Ever notice how that guy is incapable of staying on topic and having thought follow logically? Time for coffee here…

    #32449

    Unseen
    Participant

    Women deserve equal opportunity. That’s their birthright in a democracy. However, anyone who denies some basic differences going beyond the physical ones between men and women is talking nonsense. Society, I think, doesn’t give us gender roles, it reinforces them. And many of these roles are more matters of degree than anything hard and fast or exclusive to one gender or the other.

    EXAMPLE: Society reinforces the natural tendency of men to be defenders of their home and hearth but tells women to nurture and sustain their family’s children. However, when needed, we expect men to engage in some nurturing and sustaining and when needed for women to defend hearth and home.

    That such qualities are delivered to us on a platter exclusively by society doesn’t (or shouldn’t) even pass the giggle test.

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  Unseen.
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