Pastor vs Pastor

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This topic contains 55 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 4 weeks, 1 day ago.

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  • #32098

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Yes, I am not huge on anti-theism personally but I am very amused by it. For many, to suddenly proclaim non belief, would amount to social suicide.  Coworkers garnered that I would not be attending the company preferred church services; ever. I knew I had reached my top position. I was offered an early retirement deal. Socially I keep my views silent for the most part, but when pressed I can not lie. That has cooled off some of my social life but I am becoming happier about that as well.

    As I enjoy playing piano and bass in bands, there are always a few church musicians involved. They always try to recruit me into worship bands. I tell them that if I cross the threshold the holy water would boil and the stained glass would shatter.

     

     

    #32099

    jakelafort
    Participant

    fullermingjr, I did not make an allusion to the oft cited…1000 rejections v. 999. I would not imagine you to be the kind of person who would make fun of others who are attached to different forms of mythology. Quite the contrary.

    I stand by my animus. If you hear a person railing against slavery, drunk drivers, rapists, racists are you shocked by their animus? If so then you simply do not grasp the impact of religion. Again, I don’t hate theists. I hate theism. Theism has zero to do with reality. It is all make-believe. It perpetuates lies and an approach to life that is contrary to the interests of empiricism and compassion. The harms it has caused are so outstanding that it is maddening to hear the endless BS extolling faith and the lie that religion is equated with morality.

    Yes, i asked myself that very question when i was young. What if i were raised by devout anythings…would i have become a theist. How do I know? I know i was extremely curious and wanted to understand the world. I was a questioner. But so what? That describes the many, not the few. Religion has centuries of stamping out the tendencies of youth and implanting the virus. So i do not know what would have become of me.

    You say my line of thinking is a logical and genetic fallacy. Have no clue how genetics is related. But yes the truthfulness and validity of a mythology or philosophy exists independently of the viewer. We aren’t considering quantum religion, are we? However if the viewer of religion has been stricken with the virus there is no way for that victim to examine with the same penetration the viewer brings to bear on other topics. The emotional attachment and neurological marriage prevents it.

    #32100

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert and Davis, seems to me you guys see anti-theism through lens of the individual. How does theism affect me? I see it as how does theism impact civilization.

    It is same for me and i think others when we consider racism. We are opposed to it even if it has never gotten within a stone’s throw of our lives.

    #32101

    fullermingjr
    Participant

    @jakelafort – the term “genetic fallacy” is simply the name of the fallacy.  In checking the internet a little, it apparently came from a 1934 text entitled, “An Introduction to Logic and Scientific Method”.  It’s just a name.  Also, standing adamantly against slavery, drunk drivers, rapists, racists is different than standing adamantly against, say, a form of government (monarchy, pure democracy, constitutional monarchy, representative democracy, empire, etc) or a religious or philosophical system.  An individuals intensity may be the same but these are radically different issues.

    #32102

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Gotcha, fullermingjr…have not studied formal fallacies in many years.

    Different, how? Yes arguendo there is on one hand the individual that is conveyed when the phrase drunk drivers is used and a practice when slavery is used. The point is however that theism subsumes three of the four. It promotes racism, it supported slavery, and it supports rapists. So if you see the basis for a person’s adamant stand against the former then you ought to see the basis for a person’s adamant stand against the latter. I am reminded once again how invaluable an encyclopedia of the harms caused by religion could be. Dream on….

    #32103

    have not studied formal fallacies in many years..

    I just happen to have a video on that in Sunday School tomorrow.

    #32104

    fullermingjr
    Participant

    If I follow, @jakelafort, you are accusing all theistic faiths with the promotion and support of slavery, rape, and racism. Am I following your line of argument?

    Assuming no god then, why not categorize such human practices, along with our currently embraced systems that support such practices (specifically the man made religious systems that allow and/or support these terrible practices) as normal and natural phases of human cultural evolutionary development? After all, if there is no god, then rape, racism, and slavery (along with religion, totalitarianism, nazism,  and other philosophical systems that “support” such behavior)- would just be unpleasant side effects of our individual and tribal survival mechanism. Such instincts would be side effects of evolution,  right?

    I may be way out of my league here, since I  am not an atheist,  but if there is no god, this at least seems plausible.

    #32105

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    if there is no god, then rape, racism, and slavery (along with religion, totalitarianism, nazism, and other philosophical systems that “support” such behavior)- would just be unpleasant side effects of our individual and tribal survival mechanism. Such instincts would be side effects of evolution, right?

    That pretty much is the position of the evolutionary perspective, except for the grouping of religion with nazism.

    #32106

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Every Nazi Soldiers’ belt buckle..God with Us

    #32107

    Davis
    Participant

    I’m simply more relaxed about the market place of world views within a humanist society. As long as they don’t impose their beliefs on me and leave me alone and don’t subject the vulnerable to abuse…I’m fine with them believing ridiculous stuff. That requires strict laws, not the eradication of religion. It’s the same with conservativism. I am utterly not a fan and find a lot of conservative doctrine toxic. That doesn’t make me anti-conservative, I’m simply against the many elements in conservativism that have a cruel way of treating the marginalied, impose restrictions on people of different identities and ignore inequalities (social and economic) to the peril of everyone. That doesn’t make me anti-conservative, just against the toxic elements and the ones that try to keep me down. I view it the same with many other world views including alternative medicine. I’m against people who use it in a way that endangers others or their children. I’m not for banning it. Same with other woo. And the same with religion. I want to see it completely out of the political-civil sphere and limit how it abuses the vulnerable. I am not against its right to exist (though would be very pleased if it disappeared).

    #32108

    Davis
    Participant

    I was born in Germany and visit regularly. There is a strict separation of church and state. That’s not to say they don’t have political influence. But their influence is minimal and declining. As it is in other secular countries. A new Ten commandments monument is inconceivable. Atheists come out to enjoy religious cultural elements (like nativity scenes) because it is done in a secular environment. True in some villages in Bavaria you’ll find a more conservative society but the church even there doesn’t stand a chance in chipping away at the humanist society Germany has created. I have never once heard anyone speak positively about religion except passive comments by old people like “God forbid” or “thank God”. It’s a personal thing. There are traditional clubs linked with religion (like folk societies) but their goal isn’t the spread of religion but historical traditions. I mean even at conservative folk festivals you can find an LGTB tent…and nobody cares. Even the Christian demo rats, a major political force in the country are only nominally religious. Mostly in name. Atheists vote for them.

    #32109

    jakelafort
    Participant

    It is a Syrian refugee who called it to my attention. He has felt the discriminatory effects of Christianity in trying to adapt to the life and become a German citizen. And i know there is free exercise but there is entanglement between government and religion.

    Church tax
    Germany is one of the few countries in the world to levy a church tax. This is how the churches finance their spending on the community. The tax offices collect the tax for the churches from their members. It amounts to eight or nine percent of the income tax.

    The limits of church power in Germany are still defined by a clause in the legal code of the Weimar Republic, which dates back to the year 1919. It gives the two Christian denominations special privileges such as tax breaks — which do not apply to other religious groups in Germany.

    Too lazy to look for links but religion is also too involved in public education.

    #32110

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Davis i am definitely not in favor of forced eradication of religion. I also am less impressed by the holding of irrational/ridiculous beliefs. I have nothing against theists either.

    But again, as long as religion exists it will be source of all kinds of unfortunate manifestations. And i view it not from a personal standpoint but as a civilization.

    #32111

    jakelafort
    Participant

    fullermingjr, am thinking of Christianity as opposed to all theism. But it all sucks.

    I very much liked Davis’ ideas with respect to slavery. It applies to other ills as well.

    We can do better.

    #32112

    fullermingjr
    Participant

    Ok folks – I’m going to go out on a limb here.  Don’t crucify me – pun intended 😉 but do tell me where I’m wrong.

    Let’s keep my assumption of no god going and in addition, get rid of religion, too. Imagine then, not John Lennon’s dream, but to imagine with regard to real human beings, that somehow our world became completely devoid of all religion; especially Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and all of their respective derivatives and off-shoots, all over the planet.  Maybe it’s the year 2200 CE and religion is gone.

    Ok then – given our shared, collective history (because that wouldn’t change – you can’t change the past), our current human nature (which hasn’t changed in 6 to 10 thousand years as best as the top anthropologist on the plant can tell, so it’s not likely to change in 200 years), our track-record of self defense and blame shifting, our passion for pleasure, safety and prosperity (hello Maslow), our aversion to guilt and shame, and our natural instinctive drive to protect those that belong to us – do you really think that rape, slavery, and racism would simply vanish?  What part of the honest and accepted evolutionary framework, coupled with our current collective view of psychology, biology, medical science, and social science…. what part implies that such things would simply disappear?

    Earlier, there was a discussion comparing us to ants and bees.  Why not keep the analogy going?  The animal kingdom is wild – beast killing beast,  adults eating their young, all kinds of amazing things – and we’re related, right?  Simon Paynton said that my assessment of the world if there was no god was generally accurate, but he wanted to remove the Nazi’s from the list of religious and philosophical systems.  But why?  Why wouldn’t our big brains, coupled with all that I think is accurate about our nature as described above… why wouldn’t some intelligent humans INVENT religion to control the sheep-like nature of most folks?

    Granted, this is all speculation and it may not be worth the binary storage that it is now occupying.  (It’s the stuff of our best dystopian science-fiction).  Yet for the last 6 to 10 thousand years of recorded human history – long before the hated Christianity and Islam came on the scene – we have constantly fought for land, food, women (i.e. to control reproduction), power on every continent, every nation, every family.  Why, then, would the eradication of religion change anything?  If, indeed, there is no god, then religion is made up anyway, used to alleviate the sheep like fears and triggered emotional responses that “evolved” in the prehistoric Serengeti!

    This seems more like reality – and, believe it or not, I’m an optimist!

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