Prominent Atheists Dropping Like Flies

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This topic contains 21 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  _Robert_ 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #26018

    _Robert_
    Participant

    L. Krauss, Neil De Grasse Tyson and former AA president Davis Silverman now all caught up in sexual misconduct claims. Guilty until proven innocent and little recourse if vindicated.

    #26020

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    What’s the alternative?  That nobody complains?  People have to be able to make complaints.

    #26021

    _Robert_
    Participant

    What’s the alternative? That nobody complains? People have to be able to make complaints.

    The alternative is to involve law enforcement and allow the state to prosecute as with all crimes. Anything less, such as a tweet or a facebook post, usually years or decades later is bullshit. We have to stop treating women like they are little children.

    #26025

    Davis
    Participant

    Not another bloody outrage over false accusations of rape. Jesus fucking christ.

    What is bullshit is obsessing about this problem solely through the lens of women accusing rape. There is a bias screaming out in most of these complaints and it focuses on three things. 1 Rape is a different kind of crime than other crimes. 2. Women often claims like this can easily be made up. 3. Men are frequently the victims of such false claims.

    All of these three things are false. A very small fraction of such claims are false and yet these false claims is what some people focus on. They don’t focus on the fact that a human being has been violated and may spend the rest of their lives emotionally broken, have a hard time getting anyone to believe them, unable to trust people for a long time, unable to enjoy sex for a long time, possibly suffering STDs and pregnancies. No. What we should focus on is a small fraction of false claims. That’s what we should do something about. There is something so wrong with this picture…we have to ask ourselves why.

    When men and children make these claims, there seems to be a lot less resistance. Much less suspicion that they are making things up. Why? Because of inherent bias against the testimony of women. It’s in the Bible and Quran and while legally their testimony is considered equal to that of a man, still in so many ways women’s side of the story, women’s evidence and women’s take on things are taken less seriously…because…that’s the way it is. I never ever hear a single person get angry when a boy claims a man raped them, despite the fact that they can just as easily make up the story. I don’t see much outrage when a child does the same, despite the fact that the testimony of children is far less reliable than that of adult women. No, the focus is overwhelmingly on women claiming rape.

    When a boy, girl or adult accuses a woman of raping them, the last thing you ever hear is outrage that it may be false. Despite the fact that their claims could easily be made up. It’s true, women rape a whole lot less than men do, but they do it and it is reported when they do, because it is so uncommon. And yet despite the fact that the victims could theoretically easily make up these claims, they are believed. The excuses go “men are already embarrassed by having been raped…they wouldn’t make this up”. Which is such bullshit it is nauseating. EVERYONE is embarrassed about being raped. EVERYONE suffers greatly in the process of reporting rape and being believed, going through the judicial nightmare and far more often than not, seeing the perpetrator get off scot-free. And this is another signal of how rape victims are ridiculed and scorned. Male victims become the butt of jokes and face terribly bullying and harassment over it. Because rape is often taken less seriously than other crimes. A male victim of attempted murder isn’t ridiculed. Yet a man who was roofied and raped…that’s hilarious for many people.  Yet children and men are believed. Women less so. Outrage over possible fake-claims of rape happen when women make these claims, not when children and men do. Bias. Bias because women’s testimony is less reliable than that of men and children, apparently. The victim of rape is often screened from the media, mostly because they face public abuse after they make their claims (as well as the ridicule and scorn of others) as well as face serious safety concerns. On the other hand victims of attempted murder or victims of child abuse do not. Because their testimony is believed and attempted murder and child abuse are serious crimes that are a big deal.

    Despite all of that, if we were to make a law that said no children, women or men could publicly denounce a woman or man for raping them, and stop the media from reporting it (this slightly happens in the UK in some cases) … this may, very theoretically be some sort of solution (even though its a very small percentage of such claims being made up). But again, I wonder why the focus is always on rape. This is the only crime that people get angry about, suspicious of false claims. Why? Because rape isn’t as big of a deal as other crimes and because it’s women who make most of the claims and their testimony isn’t as reliable as it should be. Yet why do I never ever ever ever ever ever hear people get as equally angry when people publicly make claims of other crimes that could be (and sometimes are) made-up. False claims of murder can totally destroy someones life. The consequences stick to you and despite being exonerated you have people who will never trust you or even talk to you again, you’ll lose your job and livelihood, lose friends and family and take decades to recover. The same goes with child abuse. If you tweet…I’m positive my neighbor is smacking the shit out of their children, the fall out and consequences for that family can be immense. They can lose their children, job, friends, family, livelihood, be evicted, jailed and face untold unjust horrors if the claim is false. And yes, people make false claims for all sorts of crimes. There are many many reasons why people would do this and false crimes are reported for every single type of crime. Yet when a tweet or facebook post accusing child abuse, or if a neighbour on the local news suggests someone is being abusive to their children, I don’t recall ever ever ever anyone going “that’s outrageous that they can do this, that they can make this kind of claim outside of court, that you can be judged by the media and your lives ruined if this claim is false”. Even though people make false claims of child abuse. Even though a false claim can destroy someone’s life. No. It’s women being raped that is the crime that should be controlled on the media and social media. Why? Because rape isn’t as big of a deal and because women’s testimony isn’t as reliable. This bias is clear and while it may not be a conscious bias it still comes out ALL THE TIME. By police not taking rape claims seriously (despite the overwhelming majority of them being true), judges aggressively doubting every aspect of their testimony, the expectation that a victim should have been able to use super-human strength to get out of the rape-situation etc. When a child is abused you don’t say “yeah but were the children misbehaving”? “Why didn’t the children go and tell a neighbor”? “What was the child wearing at the time”? “Why didn’t the child smack their parents back”? (that is despite the fact that in so many rapist are violent, vicious, overpowering and extremely intimidating). Why? Because women’s testimony is taken less seriously and rape isn’t as big of a deal.

    So its pretty hard to take this kind of anger seriously. If people treated ALL claims of rape in the same way, that which comes from children and men as well (that is the suspicion that it could be a false claim and that it may destroy an innocent person’s life) then I might be able to take any of this seriously. I could see at least a rational reason for wanting to change the justice system. And just as importantly, if ALL serious crimes provoked the same kind of outrage and calls to make such claims silent, not covered by the media and not plastered all over Facebook, I could also take this claim seriously. Any crime that could destroy someone’s life should not be publicaly made nor reported on until proven in court. Okay. Fine. There is a rational argument behind this. But for some, rape isn’t as big of a deal of a crime and women’s testimony isn’t as reliable. It’s a bias that comes out in subtle ways all the time and it is front row centre when people get very hostile and angry about one of their heroes being accused of something, as opposed to feeling anger that a person is the victim of a vicious life destroying crime and that their claim is very likely true. Hopefully one day rape will be taken more seriously by all and women’s testimony will be taken more seriously. Hope that day comes soon.

    #26026

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Tyson is accused of creepy behaviour which caused one woman to quit the TV show she was working on.  It doesn’t sound that serious, however, it made one woman quit her job.  He didn’t apologise.

    Dr. Tyson described the first two instances as harmless gestures. He denied the allegation of rape.

    Krauss is accused of grabbing a woman’s breast.  I can’t find what Silverman is accused of.

    If I ever become famous, I expect every last thing I’ve done wrong to be paraded before the world.  That’s what comes with being in the public eye.

    #26032

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Hopefully one day rape will be taken more seriously by all and women’s testimony will be taken more seriously. Hope that day comes soon.

    If they make these often trivial claims (e.g. brushed a hand on my ass) twenty plus years after the fact when it often seems to be politically timed; they are diminishing the weight of  real claims. I don’t believe rape statistics or wage data published by feminist woman’s stud0ies “academia”. What a joke. They have ruined American universities and are destroying free speech. Anybody who gets “triggered” does not belong in university. At the same time we now have an environment were men have everything to lose and little to gain by entering into legally committed relationships. Divorce rape by family court is rampant. And why not just let Islam walk in right through the front door to make up for low birth rates. That is just not gonna end well. Equal opportunity does not result in equal outcome. Are women lining up to climb high voltage power poles or to design computer chips like I do? No. They generally do not care to despite heavy recruiting.

    All of this cultural Marxist nonsense just strengthens the right. I may go to the dark side this time. I will need Democratic politicians to explain their agenda carefully.

    #26038

    Unseen
    Participant

    Similar charges have been made against Prof. John Searle as well.

    Anyway, we need to keep people’s work separate from their personal dramas. Otherwise, we’d destroy every work by Caravaggio or Picasso, Byron or Faulkner, and any number of popular musicians.

    #26039

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    But it’s disappointing when someone handles something like an asshole, as Tyson seems to have done, for example.

    #26040

    Here is the response from Krauss.

    #26041

    Simon Paynton
    Participant
    the response from Krauss.
    Pretty long, and I didn’t read it all, but he seemed to handle it well.
    #26042

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    On reflection, I find it a bit mealy-mouthed.  He says, the selfie picture didn’t show him with his hand on someone’s breast.  Also, the woman didn’t make a complaint.  He should have reported the actual words of the woman involved: does she now say that he grabbed her breast during the taking of the photo?

    I don’t like this way of dealing with it.  I find that he’s “dissembling” and being a bit manipulative with the facts, instead of straightforward.

    #26043

    Strega
    Moderator

    @davis Great post. +1

    #26044

    @simon, do you think that Buzzfeed did anything wrong because I think they are a bunch of lying shits.

    #26045

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I do think they’re a bunch of lying shits too.  But Krauss did not acquit himself very well in my opinion.  He didn’t address the main issue head-on.  He made it sound like he did it but he is trying to wriggle out of it.

    #26046

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    All of this cultural Marxist nonsense just strengthens the right.

    Yes, the simple hive minds of populism, allergic to progress, claiming to be its victims, have been rising and winning, recently. It’s the Western version of Boko Haram, all those poor victims of modernity. It’s always the fault of those who don’t share the Allah/God-knows-best or some other apocalyptic vision that the end MUST SURELY be near.

    No, the pendulum won’t swing that way forever. Even the most virulent diseases eventually burn themselves out. The outrage will die out when people see it can’t actually make life better with only its tribalist, puffed up disdain and arrogance.

    By the way, do you think that speaking up against religion also “just strengthens the right”?

     

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