Short video with almost too much to think about

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This topic contains 98 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 8 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #36451

    Unseen
    Participant

    Oh is that all? That would involve corrective software updates. Or did we program the machines to decide when they feel like updating with baseline code they are writing? Honestly the only way I see all that happening is with intentional malware or negligent design . There are ways of avoiding some hostile takeover by machines as long as we are proactive with what we allow and provide for security and surveillance.

    You’re placing far too much hope on human management of AI. The developers of AI actually want AI to be able to fix and improve itself. Even if restrictions were put on AI requiring what you propose, when was a law ever passed that wasn’t broken by mistake or maliciously?

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    #36453

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Oh is that all? That would involve corrective software updates. Or did we program the machines to decide when they feel like updating with baseline code they are writing? Honestly the only way I see all that happening is with intentional malware or negligent design . There are ways of avoiding some hostile takeover by machines as long as we are proactive with what we allow and provide for security and surveillance.

    You’re placing far too much hope on human management of AI. The developers of AI actually want AI to be able to fix and improve itself. Even if restrictions were put on AI requiring what you propose, when was a law ever passed that wasn’t broken by mistake or maliciously?

    Yeah, I am sure there will be some escapes and misuse. There are always overblown dire warnings about every new technology. The field of cybersecurity is paramount and growing like crazy. I remember people building shelters for Y2K, LOL.

    Personally I think we are actually “for real” experiencing global warming and are doing very little about it. If that positive feedback cycle that climate scientists warn about gets cranked up…it will get nasty fast. In fact a lot of the weather/climate forecast models use AI.

    #36454

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I don’t pretend to understand the projected evolution of AI-hell even the internet is a mystery to me. However i know what i have read and heard from purported experts. AI will suddenly be autonomous in its true genesis which is the emergence of super intelligence. If that is true we have no prospect of stopping it whatever its intentions are. So programming of AI will be irrelevant.

    It is kind of poetic how so many climate deniers are fucked.

    #36455

    It would not make sense to the second generation of A.I that we humans were their creators.

     

    #36457

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Self-modifying code based on data analysis is nothing new, back when you had to be an EE to program embedded systems we did that all the time to extend hardware capabilities. AI regardless of network interconnectivity can only ultimately interact with the physical world through transducers, sensors, antennas, motors, relays, solenoids, lasers, etc. all which can be monitored by completely independent and cheap (offline) systems. Without all of that it’s a just brain in a jar….a brain that needs to be plugged into wall power. Yeah, I saw ‘War Games’, LOL.

    Do the experts have specific examples of how AI computers will snuff out humans and why we can’t protect ourselves….or is this more akin to a ‘general’ ominous prediction… like the kind we get from the religious?

     

    #36458

    jakelafort
    Participant

    When i was practicing law i remember an insurance agent who tried to sell me disability insurance. I told him that i would never meet the definition as an attorney-that a brain in a jar can practice law without the suit and tie.

    As to predictions of how super intelligence will be disposed to humans they differ. Most dire predictions seem to extrapolate from how we humans behave. And if that is the model we are toast. But i don’t think we have any way to know jack shit about that.

    #36459

    Unseen
    Participant

    Self-modifying code based on data analysis is nothing new, back when you had to be an EE to program embedded systems we did that all the time to extend hardware capabilities. AI regardless of network interconnectivity can only ultimately interact with the physical world through transducers, sensors, antennas, motors, relays, solenoids, lasers, etc. all which can be monitored by completely independent and cheap (offline) systems. Without all of that it’s a just brain in a jar….a brain that needs to be plugged into wall power. Yeah, I saw ‘War Games’, LOL. Do the experts have specific examples of how AI computers will snuff out humans and why we can’t protect ourselves….or is this more akin to a ‘general’ ominous prediction… like the kind we get from the religious?

    AI is insidiously already taking over. For example, your cell phone is an incredibly complex and capable bit of computer hardware and programming. At the same time, we find it almost impossible to live and work without it. We are already cyborgs of a sort.

    An auto worker of the early 1960’s could afford a mortgage, to feed a family of four, own a nice car, and go on vacation every year on his salary, obtained through his union. He wouldn’t recognize auto production today because the line would be series of robots, the only humans there to serve the needs of the robots.

    You mentioned the climate, once AI reaches “singularity” (intelligence superior to human intelligence), it will start working on solving the climate problem, and chances are we won’t like the solution because guess what the problem is.

    Skynet is not that far off.

     

    #36461

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Displacement of workers because of efficient technology is nothing new. To partake in the gains from efficient car or phone production one must own shares in those companies, otherwise you are simply not part of the wealth distribution. It’s kind of a vicious circle because there is a barrier to getting started in investment and I think we need government help to redistribute these gains along with extensive mandatory financial education to attain an equitable system. This displacement is about the become much larger as everybody who pilots a vehicle for a living will soon be out of a job.

    As far as becoming cyborgs, yes I agree that a smart phone enables bad behaviors and is very addictive. This is aligned with my initial concern about AI. We will become ‘mindless’ as we let machines think for us.

    Technocrats will yield more and more power over the rest of the population. However it is not in their best interests to allow their machines to revolt against them.

     

    #36463

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    Preaching, practicing and programing a little reciprocity and mutual regard for self-interest with our new AI neighbors would be the best way to approach this issue.

    Thomas Paine observed that once people know the truth, you can’t make them un-know it.  Likewise, once we build a technology based on those truths, there is no way to un-build it and keep it unbuilt.

    If people in the U.S. and the West severely restrict or ban AI, the technology will still exist, but elsewhere…and it may not be in hands that are friendly.

    I’d much rather have AI diamond miners and AI chessmasters in our midst than AI jihadis from Saudi Arabia or Iran and AI spymasters from Russia or Red China.

    #36464

    Unseen
    Participant

    Displacement of workers because of efficient technology is nothing new. To partake in the gains from efficient car or phone production one must own shares in those companies, otherwise you are simply not part of the wealth distribution. It’s kind of a vicious circle because there is a barrier to getting started in investment and I think we need government help to redistribute these gains along with extensive mandatory financial education to attain an equitable system. This displacement is about the become much larger as everybody who pilots a vehicle for a living will soon be out of a job.

    As singularity is reached, AI-driven automata will be able to do almost all laborious work more efficiently and less expensively than humans. More cheaply than robots because robots don’t need retirement plans, unemployment insurance payments, or salaries. Salaries generate tax income for the government to maintain infrastructure, finance government at all levels, and pay for machine maintenance. This requires tax income, and since robots don’t receive paychecks, this will mean taxing humans.

    I think you’ve been distracted into an area that will become irrelevant. What do robots need of stocks and bonds? The robots will have as a goal stability and the financial markets are chaos. They will move to eliminate markets.

    Or course, part of the insidiousness is that AI will make our life easier on the one hand while quietly making humans irrelevant on the other, allowing us to be preoccupied with creative enterprises and productions having nothing to do with the efficiency which will be their goal. As we enjoy movies and novels, we will be like the children put in front of the TV with a bunch of toys so that the adults can get on with important things.

    The financial markets aren’t necessary in a world dominated by hyperintelligent AI and so will simply be eliminated. The markets are inefficient because they are chaotic. What need would there be for financial markets, or money for that matter, in their world?

    As far as becoming cyborgs, yes I agree that a smart phone enables bad behaviors and is very addictive. This is aligned with my initial concern about AI. We will become ‘mindless’ as we let machines think for us. Technocrats will yield more and more power over the rest of the population. However it is not in their best interests to allow their machines to revolt against them.

    “World domination by an artificially brilliant meta-mind sounds scary, I know—but trust me, it won’t be.

    “Because the best part is: (if I were intelligent4 AI) I’d drag humanity to the brink of extinction in a way that allowed humans to believe it was all their idea.” (How the machines will take over)

    We’ll be around as long as the machines have a use for us.

    #36465

    Unseen
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers, Preaching, practicing and programing a little reciprocity and mutual regard for self-interest with our new AI neighbors would be the best way to approach this issue. Thomas Paine observed that once people know the truth, you can’t make them un-know it. Likewise, once we build a technology based on those truths, there is no way to un-build it and keep it unbuilt. If people in the U.S. and the West severely restrict or ban AI, the technology will still exist, but elsewhere…and it may not be in hands that are friendly. I’d much rather have AI diamond miners and AI chessmasters in our midst than AI jihadis from Saudi Arabia or Iran and AI spymasters from Russia or Red China.

    You just described why Elon Musk is so pessimistic. The genie is ALREADY out of the bottle.

    You are describing AI used for warlike purposes, but hyperintelligent AI will be global and free of politics. It will see politics as a source of chaos and chaos is inefficient with war as that chaos’s most obvious manifestation. It will supplant national governments with a global management system designed to eliminate inefficiencies.

    And one of those inefficiencies will be a burgeoning human population. Clearly, humans will be viewed as an infection of sorts. Come to think of it, does a machine world have a place for any higher life forms?

    #36466

    _Robert_
    Participant

    As singularity is reached, AI-driven automata will be able to do almost all laborious work more efficiently and less expensively than humans. More cheaply than robots because robots don’t need retirement plans, unemployment insurance payments, or salaries. Salaries generate tax income for the government to maintain infrastructure, finance government at all levels, and pay for machine maintenance. This requires tax income, and since robots don’t receive paychecks, this will mean taxing humans.

    I think you’ve been distracted into an area that will become irrelevant. What do robots need of stocks and bonds? The robots will have as a goal stability and the financial markets are chaos. They will move to eliminate markets.

    Not much to go on here, fairly silly sequence of events…who is ‘buying’ all of these products in this ‘market-less’ world that all these (unowned?) robots are making? Out of work workers? The 0.1% super-wealthy? Other robots?

    I don’t see electro-mechanical machines coming close to the current state of the art bio-mechanical-electrical-chemical machines we call life for centuries, maybe never. Life being so complicated we barely know anything about our own brains or how life even began. Computerized machines? We know everything about them and how they fail. As semiconductors get smaller and smaller they literally “wear out” and have expiration dates.

    This so called ‘singularity’ smacks of biblical prophesy, ill defined and not an immediate existential danger we face like a runaway climate. If Sapiens are still alive centuries from now and are growing “biological machines”…now that shit could get out of hand.

    #36467

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert’s words: We will become ‘mindless’ as we let machines think for us.

    My immediate reaction is how can we be any less mindless than we are? But AI is already exploiting a preexisting state. It will only get worse.

    I suppose we need to navigate increasing technological complexity. Understanding the mechanics and ramifications is less and less attainable. Not only is understanding difficult but like a rat in an experiment we will select cocaine instead of food. Technology is the new opiate of the masses. It is a trend that puts us further and further into the recesses of the cave. We are already so easily led by charismatic leaders no matter how despicable, nefarious or ignorant. Thus it would not require mind blowing intelligence to shoot us in the nuts and kick us off of the cliff. It is not an aberration how Q conspiracy is wildly successful and that its predictions are met with same results as end-times religious predictions. AI is accelerating the tribal mindlessness of the masses. (It is also why we need to relax first amendment to address the new reality)

    Artificial intelligence is biological. Circling back to the issue of what is intelligence…it is constant and unrelenting questioning, examining and analyzing. Those who are easily led are unintelligent. Ideologues are unintelligent. Those who never question their cherished beliefs are unintelligent. Aptitudes are not the same as intelligence.

    #36468

    Some early automata here (quick read).

    #36470

    Unseen
    Participant

    Not much to go on here, fairly silly sequence of events…who is ‘buying’ all of these products in this ‘market-less’ world that all these (unowned?) robots are making? Out of work workers? The 0.1% super-wealthy? Other robots?

    I don’t see electro-mechanical machines coming close to the current state of the art bio-mechanical-electrical-chemical machines we call life for centuries, maybe never. Life being so complicated we barely know anything about our own brains or how life even began. Computerized machines? We know everything about them and how they fail. As semiconductors get smaller and smaller they literally “wear out” and have expiration dates.

    I suspect once humans are gone and don’t need stuff anymore, like a hive of hyperintelligent bees, they will largely just repair and upgrade themselves, building more of themselves as needed.

    Who needs life, especially human life? Especially if you are a robot!

    This so called ‘singularity’ smacks of biblical prophesy, ill defined and not an immediate existential danger we face like a runaway climate. If Sapiens are still alive centuries from now and are growing “biological machines”…now that shit could get out of hand.

    There’s nothing mysterious, mythological, or biblical about AI singularity. It’s when some AI reaches the point of being more intelligent than humans. It may be hard to know exactly when this occurs because as we’ve been discussing elsewhere IQ and intelligence are not exactly scientific properties but are matters of human judgment.

    We can build Asimov’s laws of robotics in at first, but an intelligent machine could, like a human, question inherited values and its circuits could set it off on an unanticipated course, by which I mean one we humans didn’t see coming.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
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