What are all the reasons you don’t believe in Jesus?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

@davis – I said that religion needs secular institutions in order to form a complete society – not the other way round.  I don’t know how that would be.  I’m not sure there are any societies without religion at all, and even China has Confucianism.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Simon, why do we need religion?
That’s a big question.  It’s good not to neglect the spiritual side of life, and religion, at least in promoting long term cooperative thriving, is one way to address this.

I am never sure what people mean by “spiritual”. But if we need religion in order not to neglect it, then why not just call it “religious” in the first place?

Religion promotes long term thriving?? Yes, the religious believe they are to become immortals. That is long term.  How do you reconcile Matthew’s verse “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself” with long term thriving. I would have thought that being concerned about the near future was an important part of any long term goal?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

We could say that there are two kinds of thriving: long term and short term.  In the short term we commit actions; in the long term we suffer or enjoy the consequences of those actions.

So, Matthew’s verse “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself” is fully compatible with this.  No good comes of no good, but if we put the right conditions in place now, we are more likely to thrive later.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

What is their goal with thriving? What do they want to achieve? How do you know when your goals are reached?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

I propose that every goal is a subgoal of the primary goals: thriving, surviving and / or reproducing.

Goals are things we want, or like: we move towards them.  Anti-goals, or threats, are things we don’t like or want and try to avoid.  We feel positive emotions when something brings us closer to a goal, and negative emotions when something takes us further from a goal or nearer to a threat.

[DavisModerator]

Simon,

Then what on Earth did you mean about being a complete society? Religion is necessary to be a complete society. I must have missed something. What exactly does that mean?

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Simon, not what I asked. I know what a goal is!

What is their goal with thriving? What do they want to achieve by thriving? Why do they bother?

[jakelafortParticipant]

Spiritual is one of those ambiguous/amorphous words that require definition before a meaningful conversation will ensue. However if spiritual is tantamount to religious then it is a throwaway.

On other hand if it means something like inspiring/sensing wonder, awe, abstruse, recondite, beyond our ken then religion is a hindrance or obstacle because it directs the believer in a way that is aesthetic and contrary to nature. Thus veneration of Jesus’ balls and Mary’s virginal area is an impediment to spiritualism.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

What do they want to achieve by thriving? Why do they bother?

Ultimately, survival.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Simon, I don’t see why anyone needs religion for that. Survival is a major part of the process of Evolution. At the core of all religious creeds is the desire for the world to end, the End of Days, the return of Jesus or Allah etc. Why would a religious person care about “long term thriving” when they believe the end of the world is nigh and that they will become immortals like the god they believe in? They just need to endure this “vale of tears” first. I mean that is their reward as promised by Jesus, is it not? Am I missing something here?

 

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Why would a religious person care about “long term thriving” when they believe the end of the world is nigh and that they will become immortals like the god they believe in? They just need to endure this “vale of tears” first.

But how religious people behave in this life determines whether they think they will get into heaven or hell.  So I presume that it matters to them how they behave in this lifetime.  We don’t see too many Christians running around doing insane things, for example, on the ground that nothing matters.  That is absurd.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

They just need to endure this “vale of tears” first.

There is a speaker on the UK Christian TV channel TBN, Joyce Meyer, who has a programme called “Enjoying Everyday Life”.

[NoelParticipant]

Noel wrote:
But being an atheist I chose my higher power to be society as a whole. It worked for me.
@ Simon asked: That’s interesting.  How does that work?

Powers of example. Someone helps someone else out by giving him a coat when it’s cold out; I want to emulate that. Someone robs a bank; I don’t want that. Use people as powers of example. Something that, at the time, was a power greater than myself. Whether it was a positive or negative thing, it was a learning experience for a 30 year old who possessed the emotional capacity of a 19 year old.

Not once did I ask JESUS!!!! for help.

Yeah, Jesus never existed. You know who else never existed? Zeus, Thor, Neptune, Chango, Buddha, and on and on….

[StregaModerator]

No Zeus???  Way to ruin a good friday!  Give me those old Greek gods anytime.

[NoelParticipant]

LMAO Strega!

I was more privy to the African ones brought here by the African slaves. They actually went hand in hand with Roman Catholic practice of the statues of saints. The Africans gave the Roman Catholic statues the names of their gods and pretended to pray to Saint Barbra. When in reality they were praying to (I think) Chango, or was it Obattala? I forget. As a 10 year old it was all so confusing.

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