What are all the reasons you don’t believe in Jesus?

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This topic contains 71 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer 7 hours, 22 minutes ago.

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  • #25543

    But those things don’t get people off drugs, and keep them off, for example..

    I agree. People keep themselves of drugs. If they were to engage with Science based medicine or therapy like CBT, they would become empowered to discover the root of their addiction and take steps (not 12 of them) to stay on the right path to recovery. The problem with faith based or supernatural based interventions is that they the see the addiction as the problem and not a manifestation of the problem. They don’t tackle the root cause of the abuse that  causes the addiction, only the addiction itself.

    This is why people still claim “My name is X and I am an alcoholic” even after 20 years of sobriety. This is wrong. They took drugs or alcohol to alleviate the pain suffered through trauma. They need qualified science based professional help to recover from and learn to understand the trauma which also tackles the addiction issue. They do not need woo based supernatural “remedies” that tell them that they are too puny to deal with the problem themselves. When they become empowered they can learn to “take up their own bed and walk”.

    #25544

    _Robert_
    Participant

    The idea might help some people in the same way that healing crystals or astrology helps some people.

    But those things don’t get people off drugs, and keep them off, for example. They are puny compared with the force of Jesus, whatever that might be.

    It’s the power of community that helps people, even if they share a common delusion. And they only share a cherry-picked version of the Jesus. They exchange one addiction to another. Music, candles and a fast talking liar in robes to whip up the rationally challenged crowd into a frenzy and there is the “experience”.  And then eventually it fails for one reason or another. Church membership often becomes like a dysfunctional extended family and the roll book is a revolving door.

    #25545

    Noel
    Participant

    Simon:  12 step programs ask that you ask a power greater than yourself to help you with the addiction. And then they go and insert the word God in Their preambles.  But being an atheist I chose my higher power to be society as a whole. It worked for me. On April 10 I will have not used drugs and alcohol for 29 years.  I am proof positive, for today anyway, that you don’t need Jesus to stay sober one day at a time.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  Noel.
    #25547

    Noel
    Participant

    Reg: to this day I still daydream of a Johnny Walker Black neat.  Haven’t been to meetings in over 13 years. I tend to go with consequential thinking. I like what I have today. None of it is attributable to a higher power named god.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  Noel.
    #25549

    Davis
    Participant

    If there’s nothing to it, then why does “Jesus save”? How can people have their lives turned around, over nothing?

    Because we are just gullible fragile humans simon. You need not look any further than our ability to believe anything and spend most our history having believed everything. Be it good or toxic fallout. We keep doing it. Consider this for some time.

    #25550

    Davis
    Participant

    The idea might help some people in the same way that healing crystals or astrology helps some people.
    But those things don’t get people off drugs, and keep them off, for example

    Simon you are endlessly recycling the same appologism again and again. You ought to open your brain to a few new ideas beyond thriving and spiritualism.

    You keep repeating the claim “but religion works for some people” but I don’t really ever read you talk about when it backfires, becomes superbtoxic, what happens when better non religious alternatives become available,the extreme limits we should place on religion to keep it from controlling the rest of us and toxifying everything around it, or answer just how good is religion for some people, are non-ridiculous methods equally good? Better? Does needing those very crystals actually betray a reliance on crutches? Does needing a fictional power reveal toxic pessimism of humanity? Okay…singing some songs make some people in a room happy for a time and have purpose. So what? Communist marching music did the same. That it “works for  people” is a terrible Dr. Bob phrase.  For who? How well? What if though? Alternatives? Broader perspective? Christianity worked! Yeah and communism put rice in peoples mouth so what. Jesus Saves. So does Allah when you blow up a shopping centre. So what?

    #25552

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Jesus stands for hope, optimism, and positivity, and that’s a good thing.  I agree that the situation of believing in God can sometimes turn toxic in various ways: for example, when it becomes blended with the Patriarchy and all its associated ills.

    #25553

    What is the “hope” that Jesus stands for?

    #25554

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    The hope that is brought by living on the right path.

    #25555

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    But being an atheist I chose my higher power to be society as a whole. It worked for me.

    That’s interesting.  How does that work?

    #25556

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Jesus stands for hope, optimism, and positivity, and that’s a good thing. I agree that the situation of believing in God can sometimes turn toxic in various ways: for example, when it becomes blended with the Patriarchy and all its associated ills.

    Is the patriarchy in charge of the wedding industry?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkTfXwe76pw

     

    #25557

    The hope that is brought by living on the right path.

    How do they verify that Jesus is the right pathway. How do they discover this in the first place?

    #25558

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    How do they verify that Jesus is the right pathway.

    He advocated a number of different behaviours that promote long-term cooperative thriving, for example:

    • forgiveness, instead of tit-for-tat eye-for-an-eye retribution
    • his sermon about “love God, and love your neighbour as yourself”
    • befriending the poor and outcast
    • his apparently giving his own life, quietly, in service of his mission (the point is, self-sacrifice)
    • the situation with the woman who was going to be stoned, whom he saved from stoning.

    How do they discover this in the first place?

    I don’t know, you’d have to ask them.

    It is assumed that long-term cooperative thriving is the right path.

    The only real criticism I can find of his moral philosophy is that there doesn’t seem to be any room for self-defence or punishment in the earthly realm – he seems to have encouraged people to be walked all over.

     

    #25559

    I asked “How do they verify that Jesus is the right path”.  What sources do they have. I did not ask what he advocated for. All you are doing is given your interpretation of the Bible. If you are claiming that following the Bible, or selective passages from it while ignoring all of the terrible commands Jesus made  – including the 50 of them I listed above –  then you are making the same selective claims that most Christians make.

    How do they discover this in the first place?
    I don’t know, you’d have to ask them.

    You don’t know? Let me answer my own question so. They discover this by being indoctrinated into it by self appointed pastors and priests and by reading the Bible. Are you suggesting that atheists should read it too?

    I am saying that Biblical morality is not fit for purpose in the modern world. It is crude, vulgar and simplistic. It is no longer worthy of our consideration. It is not a platform to build a code of ethics upon.

    “It is assumed that long-term cooperative thriving is the right path”.

    Maybe so, but not by Christians. To quote Matthew and his long term co-operative plan;

    “So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”
    …………………………………………………………..

    The only real criticism I can find of his moral philosophy is that there doesn’t seem to be any room for self-defence or punishment in the earthly realm – he seems to have encouraged people to be walked all over.

    I can find many more but your one alone should be enough to dismiss all of it.

     

    #25562

    Unseen
    Participant

    Quite frankly, were I to be religious (fat chance), I’d probably be a Buddhist. It makes more sense than any Abrahamic faith. Give me a reason to believe the Christ story.

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