What’s wrong here?: 750+ foreign bases and 20+ foreign wars

Homepage Forums Politics What’s wrong here?: 750+ foreign bases and 20+ foreign wars

This topic contains 30 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  _Robert_ 3 weeks, 2 days ago.

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  • #45596

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    I’m not sure what brought that on, but I’ll give it a big resounding “Whatever.”

    I say it’s a very big “whatever” as you call it. Parents are doing with around $100 what all levels of Government can’t do for $Trillions, even with mandatory Pre-K that they pine for so much!

    I will say it’s kind of sad you don’t know what “socialization” is.

    It’s the process by which individuals, starting as children, acquire the values, habits, and attitudes of a social group.

    I know what “socialization” is, and it’s not inherently a good thing. What if the “social group” is a cult or a gang or tribe of cannibals or an Authoritarian/Totalitarian movement? What if the “social group” is wrong? As Robert “Papa” Heinlein asked: “Has there ever been a case where the majority was right?”

    And isn’t learning new things and applying that knowledge in new ways a “value, habit and attitude” worth having? I would say so, and as a side benefit, it helps children grow up to do great things for worthy social groups.

    #45598

    Unseen
    Participant

    So yet another one who thinks a democratic republic is second to a dictatorship? That’s because you can’t even imagine how you would be arrested, tortured and jailed for the unpatriotic post you just made. As for the “SLAVs, serfdom in Russia was finally abolished in 1906.

    Robert, can you finish this sentence? “Engaging in genocide, killing innocent civilians, overthrowing governments, and engaging in deceptive propaganda at home are good because…”

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by  Unseen.
    #45600

    Unseen
    Participant

    @Enco

    True, being socialized into a cannibal society, a criminal clan, or an incestuous family is a bad thing.

    And yet, it’s universally recognized that to be unsocialized is far far far from a good thing. It’s a form of mental illness.

    #45601

    Unseen
    Participant

    @robert

    Maybe we need to stop trying to bring our kind of “democracy” to unsuspecting victims abroad when dictatorship is taking hold at home.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by  Unseen.
    #45604

    _Robert_
    Participant

    So yet another one who thinks a democratic republic is second to a dictatorship? That’s because you can’t even imagine how you would be arrested, tortured and jailed for the unpatriotic post you just made. As for the “SLAVs, serfdom in Russia was finally abolished in 1906.

    Robert, can you finish this sentence? “Engaging in genocide, killing innocent civilians, overthrowing governments, and engaging in deceptive propaganda at home are good because…”

    …compared to every other form of governance the degree and frequency of these acts are much less severe and are easier to discover and the perpetrators can be peacefully voted out of office and also prosecuted for crimes against humanity by the citizens.

    In 2017, historian Stephen Kotkin wrote in The Wall Street Journal that 65 million people died prematurely under communist regimes according to demographers, and those deaths were a result of “mass deportations, forced labor camps and police-state terror” but mostly “from starvation as a result of its cruel projects of social engineering

    Mass killings under communist regimes – Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

    We could add all the suffering and death caused by obnoxious royalty and dictators as they dragged their subjects through WW1 and 2, killing almost 100 million, African and South American strong men/dictators who just love when their minions hack each other with machetes and Middle Eastern theocrats who just can’t seem to get enough blood on their hands; thanks be to god. And that’s just recent history.

    The numbers and degree of suffering under the foot of totalitarians is beyond comprehension.

    #45605

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    […] nor can any Government scheme produce affordable health care and education. When a third party pays, there’s no reason to hold down costs.

    The VA health system has saved my mental and physical health. Why? Because people (and enough politicians) care more about veterans. The VA is an example of how a “social welfare” kind of system could actually work in USA, even if, as you say, “there’s no reason to hold down costs”.

    What kind life-long term, e.g. with 10 or 50 year objectives, could ever be possible if quarterly/annual-profit enterprises were the only third parties running purported “affordable” health care?

    #45606

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Monkey see. Monkey do. Monkey make doo doo.

    We are as a species partaking in monkey business. Our gaiety is filled with cruelty. Our mindset controlled by external factors like monkeys led by marionettes. Born into orthodoxy? See an orthodox moron. Born into a slave society? See a slave holding guilt-free monkey. Born into Nazi Germany? See a cruel prison guard who goes home after murder and degradation to pet his dog and make monkey love to his wife. I will stop with the born into BS. Point made and probably incontrovertible notwithstanding the outliers who break the chains of their marionettes.

    So why the fuck can’t we use the social media and a world wide grass roots movement to change shit? Is it that far out? Monkeys don’t have to be bad. They can be programmed to be better than they are. March of folly makes us jolly. Straight into the blade.

    #45607

    _Robert_
    Participant

    At least the “stop the steal” anti-democracy candidates didn’t do as well as expected. Not saying we are out of the woods yet by a long shot, but many people thought “maybe they should vote for someone who won’t accept that we want them out now” even if they agreed with their party line.

    #45608

    Davis
    Moderator

    America did shit all militarily as Ukraine has been ravaged. It fucked up in the former Yugoslavia. America’s adventures in Iraq also led to an extreme increase of Jihaddist terrorism in Europe. I fail to see how for a god damn second how America is “protecting” Europe. Enco, you are so f***ing deluded sometimes, you are incapable of seeing past your asinine fantasies. America has done shit for Europe in the last 50 years and it is a FAR more dangerous place because of America. Enco, in some senses you live in more of a fantasy world than the most zealous religious nutcase.

    #45609

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Unfortunately, the US leadership consistently fails to fully understand other cultures and their politics even if their original intentions were sound. For example, first siding with Saddam against fundamentalist hostage-taking, missile slinging Iran. That was stupid. When Saddam’s balls swelled up and he invaded Kuwait…do you just say, “oh well”? We had deals with Saudi who thought they were next. Then the Americans failed to understand the reaction extreme Saudi Arabs would have to the US build-up. After all the Brits fucked Palestine beyond repair and well there are the Jews. Who can blame them after the gas chambers.   And so..shit, we hit Iraq again and their “WMDs”. More stupid.

    However, without the US/NATO interventions who knows what would have happened? There’s no control group, no way to know what happens if the USSR was not checked, if Saddam and Khaddaffi were left to their devices.  If the Serbs were allowed to go on, if Castro expanded all over the Carribean. If Ukraine was not supported and Putin was allowed to overrun as he pleases. Hindsight criticism is easy. What if Neville Chamberlain told Hitler to fuck-off and the Brits and US geared up early? One thing is for sure, there have always been malevolent dictators to deal with, so “peace in our time” is bullshit.

    #45610

    Autumn
    Participant

    Unfortunately, the US leadership consistently fails to fully understand other cultures and their politics even if their original intentions were sound.

    US foreign and military policy is so opaque it would be difficult to tell what US intentions really were most of the time. In a number of cases, we don’t even know the extent of US involvement let alone motives for action or inaction. We can speculate with contextual clues, and eventually some information gets released at a later date, but governments reserve the right to exercise a lot of control over information, and we generally accept it as operational necessity.

    #45611

    Unseen
    Participant

    compared to every other form of governance the degree and frequency of these acts are much less severe and are easier to discover and the perpetrators can be peacefully voted out of office and also prosecuted for crimes against humanity by the citizens.

    Who’s talking about a form of government? The issue is how the U.S. treats others and what justifies engaging in genocides,  killing innocent civilians, overthrowing governments, and engaging in deceptive propaganda at home. A benign/benevolent dictator or king could run the country to benefit the citizens without engaging in the crimes the so-called “democratic” U.S. is party to.

    Mass killings under communist regimes – Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

    A study in whataboutism that’s a plain attempt to non-answer the questions I have been raising.

    My OP was not about the relative virtues of the various forms of government.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by  Unseen.
    #45613

    Unseen
    Participant

    America did shit all militarily as Ukraine has been ravaged. It fucked up in the former Yugoslavia. America’s adventures in Iraq also led to an extreme increase of Jihaddist terrorism in Europe. I fail to see how for a god damn second how America is “protecting” Europe. Enco, you are so f***ing deluded sometimes, you are incapable of seeing past your asinine fantasies. America has done shit for Europe in the last 50 years and it is a FAR more dangerous place because of America. Enco, in some senses you live in more of a fantasy world than the most zealous religious nutcase.

    And all that money spent on fucking things up worldwide rather than on making American lives more livable.

    #45614

    Unseen
    Participant

    However, without the US/NATO interventions who knows what would have happened? There’s no control group, no way to know what happens if the USSR was not checked, if Saddam and Khaddaffi were left to their devices.  If the Serbs were allowed to go on, if Castro expanded all over the Carribean. If Ukraine was not supported and Putin was allowed to overrun as he pleases. Hindsight criticism is easy. What if Neville Chamberlain told Hitler to fuck-off and the Brits and US geared up early? One thing is for sure, there have always been malevolent dictators to deal with, so “peace in our time” is bullshit.

    Early in my life I got into a messed up relationship, so I sought counseling. As a result of the counseling, two things came into sharp focus, and I think they can apply to nations as well as people:

    1) You can only really control your own behavior.

    When you try to control them, they will react and behave differently but probably not the way you want them to. Minimally, you have to recognize that how they react is their choice, not yours.

    2) When you try to control someone else, they control you.

    When you try to control someone else, you become enmeshed in the relationship. You have to be constantly aware and vigilant. Ready to counter their move, whatever it is.

    Not recognizing these principles makes your life worse, not better.

    Now, just look at what the U.S. has gotten itself and its citizens into by ignoring those principles.

     

     

    #45615

    _Robert_
    Participant

    However, without the US/NATO interventions who knows what would have happened? There’s no control group, no way to know what happens if the USSR was not checked, if Saddam and Khaddaffi were left to their devices. If the Serbs were allowed to go on, if Castro expanded all over the Carribean. If Ukraine was not supported and Putin was allowed to overrun as he pleases. Hindsight criticism is easy. What if Neville Chamberlain told Hitler to fuck-off and the Brits and US geared up early? One thing is for sure, there have always been malevolent dictators to deal with, so “peace in our time” is bullshit.

    Early in my life I got into a messed up relationship, so I sought counseling. As a result of the counseling, two things came into sharp focus, and I think they can apply to nations as well as people: 1) You can only really control your own behavior. When you try to control them, they will react and behave differently but probably not the way you want them to. Minimally, you have to recognize that how they react is their choice, not yours. 2) When you try to control someone else, they control you. When you try to control someone else, you become enmeshed in the relationship. You have to be constantly aware and vigilant. Ready to counter their move, whatever it is. Not recognizing these principles makes your life worse, not better. Now, just look at what the U.S. has gotten itself and its citizens into by ignoring those principles.

    Well, it seems to me Hitler, Putin, the CCP, Stalin, Kim, Trump and the Catholic Church control people just fine. In fact, it is pretty easy. If you bow down to authoritarians, you just encourage them. A couple of smart bombs on their compound really makes them think, for a while at least. It’s all they understand.

    Don’t forget how much we spend on foreign aid. Every disaster. $8.2B.

    Largest donors of humanitarian aid worldwide 2021 | Statista

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/275597/largers-donor-countries-of-aid-worldwide/

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