I was walking along a street in Dublin recently when a polite young couple asked if I had a minute to speak with them. I ‘assumed’ they were going to ask me if Jesus was my friend or something similar. I was having withdrawal symptoms as it was nearly 4 days since I had such a conversation 😊
She opened with the line “Do you think Ireland is correct in wanting to enshrine into law the ‘Occupied Territories Bill’ ?(more).
I asked her which territories were occupied and by whom.
“I would have thought that was obvious to everyone?”
Oh, you mean Crimea and Donetsk or Kherson in the Ukraine that are occupied by Russia? Or is it Northern Cyprus that is occupied by Turkey?
“Oh, come on now, please be reasonable”
OK, not those…could it be Tibet occupied by China or Transnistria in Moldova that is currently in the news?
No, No, the lands occupied by Israel.
OK, you should have led with that, I said, as her wannabe boyfriend tried to 1000 yards stare me down (doing much to further my amusement).
Are you talking about the Golan Heights that Israel now holds?
Well yes, that is one of them. It would be a start.
And who should Israel give it back to?
To Palestine of course! Don’t you follow the news??
But Israel kept it after the Six-Day-War in 1967 because of it high elevation as artillery units could shell Israeli villages and farms in the Hula Valley. But why should they give it to “Palestine” when they annexed it from Syria to stop them bombing Israel?
What?? Well not that part then. We are talking mostly about Gaza.
Right, but they gave it to the “Palestinians” 20 years ago and Hamas then occupied it. Israel fully disengaged from Gaza. It pulled out all settlers and dismantled every Israeli settlement. They even exhumed their dead from the cemeteries when they were leaving. Then billions in UNRWA aid and foreign money flowed into Gaza. Much of it went to welfare, schools, and food, but Hamas co-opted much of the system to push Islamic indoctrination in schools and summer camps. Kids grew up on martyrdom songs, maps with Israel erased, and constant propaganda about a god that neither of you two believe in. Instead of investing in industry, trade, or jobs, Hamas invested in tunnel networks, weapons smuggling, and rockets. Israel called it the “terror economy” as all the cement, steel, and funds that could have gone into housing and infrastructure instead went underground. Rocket fire became the central Hamas “policy tool.” Every few years, rocket barrages into Israel led to massive Israeli counter strikes leaving Gaza even more impoverished. Ordinary Gazans got poorer, angrier, and more trapped. Hamas got fatter and richer. Hamas had nearly 20 years to build Gaza into the nucleus of a Palestinian homeland. They had international sympathy, tons of aid, and full Israeli withdrawal. But they turned it into a forward base for perpetual conflict instead.
The pair of them were stunned into silence. I could see they had no idea of what I was taking about. Her next effort was to suggest;
Well, Israeli should not have taken it from Palestine in the first place.
Israel did not. Until 1948, Gaza was part of the British Mandate of Palestine. Egypt ‘occupied’ Gaza when the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948. Imagine finding a home 3 years after living through the genocide of WW2, only to be attacked by your new neighbors who were more intent on killing Jews than the Nazis were? Egypt continued to occupy Gaza for another 20 years and did nothing to give Palestine Arabs any rights.
Now, I see “West Bank” is next on your clipboard list. Please answer me this before we talk about it. (As in I talk and you two listen 😊) For today’s top prize “Who did Israel take the West Bank from in 1967?
A nervous “Palestine” came the reply.
The West Bank was occupied by Jordan for 20 years. Israel took it over in another defensive war. Israel occupied land that was not legally Jordan’s to begin with. It was never Palestinian land. Do you think Israel should give it to Hamas? Would it be better for the future if the occupying force of Hamas left Gaza?
Silence.
The FACT is that Gaza and the West Bank weren’t sovereign Palestinian states in 1967; they were territories under Jordanian and Egyptian control. Neither country did anything to help.
Or did you mean the swampland of the Hulu Valley that was legally purchased by the Jewish National Fund? They then committed genocide on the mosquitos and rid the place of malaria and immediately attacked the desert wasteland with irrigation systems and then banished lots of rocks to the hills. They made the desert bloom and now it stinks of lemons and olives and is occupied by transplanted eucalyptus.
I could see that she was coming to realize that the situation is a lot more nuanced than she thought it was, and I will grant her leeway as she was “just a young activist” and asked me questions to enhance her understanding of history of whole territory. I invited them, in Arabic, (Tḥibbī nishrab ahwe maʿ baʿḍ?) to join me for a coffee as we were standing outside a coffee shop. I translated it. It is one of about 5 sentences I know 😊. She said Yes, but he said No, as he would have to undo his dirty Kufiyah and show his face.
I don’t think I did Jake, but I did rattle their echo chamber with external inputs. She was willing to listen. My comments would sound forthright and assured rather than combative because I generally only talk about things I have a understanding of. I don’t have “isms” that I believe in. Rather, I have “considered opinions on topics I have made the effort to study and come to an understanding on. I also learn a lot about other people by actively joining them in breaking bread together. Or with a bun and a coffee! But a rattled echo chamber always tends towards silence and allows for space to think more freely. So hopefully she will get there soon enough by her own efforts.
An excellent history lesson on real occupied lands as well as the history of Israel’s 77 years of dealing with a hostile armored Welcome Wagon…but do be careful dealing with random street people of unknown intentions, especially masked people wearing the trademark insignia clothing of global intifada with matching flags.
Keep all involved in a clear line of sight, with enough space between you to make them work to get to you and for you to make an escape. Pay in advance for food and drink so you aren’t an accidental “dine and dash.” Keep near doors if indoors. If they’re in a group, don’t let them surround you. If you can’t avoid a fight, go for the eyes, nose, throat, and groin with anything you have on hand. Make as much noise as possible to call attention to them. Yell “fire”, which has been shown to attract more attention.
Thanks Enco. I am very experienced in spotting the narrow-minded and dangerous idiots who get frustrated and angry when finding themselves incapable of responding rationally to facts. I have manned Atheist Ireland tables around the country over the years and encountered all types of weirdos and religious bigots. I usually take a Socratic approach and try to get people to challenge themselves by asking them to explain. I guess it might be called “active listening”. I seldom tell them that “you are wrong in what you believe”. Rather, I ask them to explain to me why I should believe them. They feel less threatened that way. Some good pointers here.
I also make a point of never discussing science with theists anymore. I keep them focused on their belief in being able to communicate with their version of the Creator of the Universe. And I bear in mind my rule that the best outcome of arguing with a fool is to be able to say “I just bested a fool in an argument” 🙂
Wow, thanks Reg. Glad I finally got to reading this.
I mentioned before that I’m incompetent in topics of history. I often even fail at accurately recalling the history of myself.
High school pre-college tests ranked me at 99th percentile in science, 95th percentile in math, 35th percentile in humanities and history, and others I’ve forgotten. If they had scored me on social skills, I’m guessing I would have ranked around 20th percentile in a classroom, 60th percentile one-on-one. I don’t think I even knew what philosophy was. Or group sex.
I’m going to ask my progressive-rabbi friend his take on this thread. And I need to search Jake’s posts backwards from Oct 8 at 12:23 am, to find the post you were responding to. 🙂 [Edit, minutes after Oct 22 5am: Found it!]
PopeBeanie 2 weeks, 2 days ago.
Reg the Fronkey Farmer.
