jakelafort

I’nat part of what deTocqueville bitched about in terms of democracy. Tyranny of the majority. Stupidity of the masses.

So ya it is a legit concern Robert raises. And goddamn does murica have a great many morons.

Perhaps the majority votes as to it’s intentions or policy objectives and an outside group is hired that effectuates the worker’s…[Read more]

Part of the monologue is stupid. Our youth and ignorance against mores of the past is just a bad analogy. I agree completely with his take that humans suck. As i have said a gazillion times whoever holds the power is the fuckor and whoever is without is the fuckee. Blacks no better than Whites. etc.

I do not accept cultural relativism. We should…[Read more]

Good answer Robert. At least it makes sense to me.

I would also have experts in each area of political debate to grill the candidates publicly. No advance notice of the questions either. It is the best way to cut through the bullshit. Get to see how they think on their feet with hypotheticals, get a sense of the depth of their knowledge and…[Read more]

Robert, you wrote…if you do allow for true demand-driven capitalist competition and really tax and disperse according to need you could flatten the wealth inequality.

I understand the concept of demand-driven capitalist competition. But i am not certain what you mean by disperse according to need. Would you elaborate?

*addendum

The other thing about jobs is the status conferred. No need to elaborate.

The value of the job to civilization does not necessarily align with difficulty of qualifying in terms of aptitude, intelligence or education. Nor does the compensation for a job necessarily align with its value to civilization. So like everything else in human affairs it is messed up. That humans tolerate a few people making decisions about war…[Read more]

Yeah why?

Well Russia has a history of being backwards. In war they were always behind in weaponry. Without Peter the Great their efforts to catch up to the west would have taken even longer. Serfdom lasted a long long time. The Romanovs were vicious. The Revolution was vicious. Communism sucked. The people are diverse. The land mass is massive.…[Read more]

Thanks Unseen.

Twas funneeee

Simon says: The subject has made an agreement with the experimenter. Agreements have normative force: instinctively we feel we should stick to them. This is the manipulation in my opinion.

I simply do not see it. Authority v. decency is how i see it. And that is how Milgram saw it. Here is what he wrote.

The legal and philosophic aspects of…[Read more]

I would have a diminished opinion of myself if i fell in line with the majority of Milgram subjects.

I have questioned things since i was a kid. Have questioned teachers. Have thought my way to unpopular opinions. Have stood up for people who were being abused by a groups at risk of personal harm. I have felt repulsed at the herd instinct…[Read more]

Context and manipulation in appearance of authority are symbiotic.

Autumn, I guess i am not sure what you are getting at. If the subjects felt less coerced they would not give the shocks? So if the experiment was intended to inform the subjects that choosing to shock was purely voluntary and that they could decline there would be fewer who…[Read more]

You would have to go far and wide simply soliciting passersby to find somebody to shock to death a stranger. Yes context matters. The point is that it is the appearance of AUTHORITY that causes the rank and file to do as they’re told, to go with the flow. That is fairly universal among us and throughout history. I agree it is not inherently good…[Read more]

Simon that just avoids the issue-begs the question.

Accountable to others for what? Presumably that is a position held by the majority and imposed through authority/custom and in no way speaks to right or wrong. My point is right and wrong can not be dependent on the contemporary mores. That simply renders right and wrong meaningless andn fact…[Read more]

Simon, feeling moral means obeying an authority figure?

Maybe so. Feelings are just feelings. Does it mean being moral. Social norms which fluctuate over the ages are tantamount to morality. If so morality is meaningless in terms of what is right and wrong.

Hypothetical. Lets conduct an experiment.

KNOCK SOME SENSE INTO THEM!

LADIES AND…[Read more]

I have wondered whether fetus Glen raised in a religious household/culture would have become religious Glen. Of course i answer that question in the negative. I may be a bit biased.

One can ask oneself same question in re Milgram. I can’t see myself complying. I have a history of questioning authority and no reason to believe i would have been…[Read more]

Simon, the conclusion is crap: In sum, though subjects in the Milgram paradigm violated their own reflective moral convictions, this may be because their conscience motives were hostage to the powerful moral appearances generated by the demands of the experimenter.

Characterizing obedience in inflicting shocks is anything but moral. By the same…[Read more]

One of the potential explanations for the behaviour is that it was very easy for participants to pass off moral responsibility.

Yes it is. That is a big part of submission to authority-we don’t need to or are not permitted to question those in authority whether their doings are benevolent or evil. I stand by what i said. Those subjects were led…[Read more]

Being easily led is a generalization and as with all/nearly all blanket there is nuance and there are exceptions.

For instance once the die is cast it is not easy at all to lead. Those who have been already manipulated/indoctrinated can be incredibly unbending. Social media, political and religious ideology all do a number on humans so that once…[Read more]

I suppose it depends on how you define easily led. As a practical matter en masse we are easily led.

Individually we know of the Millgram experiment (not sure i got name correct) and that experiment demonstrates conclusively/persuasively how the masses submit to authority even when it is against their nature or inclinations. Twain has a…[Read more]